Jews take over East Ramapo School District and Defund It

[Saintly_Loser]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Can you provide a bit of detail as to how they “essentially block access to anyone other than Hasidic families”?

Physically block it. Families arrive early, and park all their strollers so that they jam the entrance. The men crowd at and fill the entrance while the women take the children into the water park.

If you’re persistent, you’ll get in. Nobody is going to assault you, or restrain you. But they make it difficult, and sort of unpleasant while you’re there. I’m not comfortable exposing my young daughter to hostile looks and remarks, and she’s old enough to get that something is wrong when the parents of the other little children in there move their kids away from her.

Actual evidence? No, I don’t suppose I have any that would pass muster here. It’s my experience, and that of my neighbors, that’s all. No pictures, citations to news reports, or anything like that.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@steronz

That’s my memory of a podcast I listened to once, on a highway, many months ago. But that does appear to the case:

I haven’t gone through the transcript to see if there are any better numbers, but as of the reporting, the Hasid population was the minority.

I’d be curious as to the basis of Glass’ assertion.

But even if it’s true, it doesn’t necessarily address the question here, as phrased. One of the big issues in that district is that many of the public school parents – political opponents of the Hasid population – are non-citizens and not eligible voters. So even if Glass is correct that the Hasid population is the minority of the people, that doesn’t mean they’re the minority of eligible voters.

Here’s the relevant part of the transcript:

Leaving aside that you’re quoting political opponents and not neutral outside analysts, I don’t think these quotes support your position.

They’re saying they were able to increase their votes substantially, but the Hasidic community was able to increase theirs in tandem. (The first election, in which their vote remained constant, is not a valid indicator. If this was the first time a Hasidic person was ever on the ballot, then it’s likely that some voters who previously voted for Ms. Calhoun would have switched sides. You can’t assume your voters are all the same people if the entire framework of the race shifted.)

Basically, what these numbers support is that the Hasidic community has more voters. When it was lower key there was lower participation by both sides, and as things got more heated up both sides increased their turnout. But the one constant was that the Hasidic community produced more voters for all levels of public interest. That suggests that they simply had more voters.

@Saintly_Loser

Physically block it. Families arrive early, and park all their strollers so that they jam the entrance. The men crowd at and fill the entrance while the women take the children into the water park.

Is it possible that they’re not really partaking in a scheme to block your access but are just being inconsiderate?

[steronz]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

But even if it’s true, it doesn’t necessarily address the question here, as phrased. One of the big issues in that district is that many of the public school parents – political opponents of the Hasid population – are non-citizens and not eligible voters. So even if Glass is correct that the Hasid population is the minority of the people, that doesn’t mean they’re the minority of eligible voters.

I’m not sure why it matters, really. I was merely checking Bone’s assertion that this was the “will of the majority” based on my own memory of the podcast disagreeing with that assessment.

But let’s take a step back and look at an imaginary district that’s 80% wealthy whites and 20% poor minorities. If the 80% slashes the school budget and sends all of their kids to private school while leaving a barely-functioning-at-state-minimums district in place for the poor kids who can’t afford private school, that still seems like a shitty thing to do.

But that doesn’t really happen. Wealthy communities generally have good public schools, and places with bad schools are generally poor. This case is unique.

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Leaving aside that you’re quoting political opponents and not neutral outside analysts, I don’t think these quotes support your position.

For enough, this is the pit and not GD and I don’t really care about the poor people of East Ramapo enough to do my own research. Clearly the implication of the TAL episode was that there was an organized effort by a minority group to maintain an advantage in the elections, and I bolded the line that suggests it – about bussing in voters. I generally trust TAL and assume that they wouldn’t include that line without getting some additional confirmation that it was true, but I’m not going to do my own research on this.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@steronz

But let’s take a step back and look at an imaginary district that’s 80% wealthy whites and 20% poor minorities. If the 80% slashes the school budget and sends all of their kids to private school while leaving a barely-functioning-at-state-minimums district in place for the poor kids who can’t afford private school, that still seems like a shitty thing to do.

But that doesn’t really happen. Wealthy communities generally have good public schools, and places with bad schools are generally poor. This case is unique.

Agreed.

But ISTM that the main reason it’s unique is because in this case the parents of private school kids are not rich people - they’re themselves mostly lower middle class to poor people who feel they need to send their kids to private schools at great financial sacrifice because otherwise they won’t be raised in accordance with their values. In your hypothetical rich district you would have a lot of people rich enough to not mind paying some extra taxes for the public schools to have some extras. In this case, you don’t, and people don’t see why they should pay taxes for other people to have things that their own kids don’t have in their schools (that they pay for).

[The other important distinction is that the public and private school parents are clearly delineated ethnic/religious groups, which creates an enormous us-versus-them dynamic, on both sides.]

[Bone]

@steronz

I’m not sure why it matters, really. I was merely checking Bone’s assertion that this was the “will of the majority” based on my own memory of the podcast disagreeing with that assessment.

I concede the clarification that the activities of the board were the will of the majority of those who voted - but that much I assumed was understood.

And bussing in voters doesn’t imply they held a minority position. It is a way to assist members of the community who may otherwise not be able to travel to vote. This is a common tactic in get out the vote efforts.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Is it possible that they’re not really partaking in a scheme to block your access but are just being inconsiderate?

It’s possible, but I don’t think so (and I’m not alone). There are other examples of inconsiderate behavior – their minivans are often parked in the spots reserved for people with a disability parking permit – but this seems (and not only to me) to be intentional. The parking of strollers so as to block the exit, when there are more convenient places, including a special stroller parking area, and the congregation of men at the entrance, who don’t volunteer to move out of the way, and when asked to move aside, ignore the asker, or feign ignorance of English, is pretty clearly intentional.

Not the biggest issue in the world, and not likely to lead to dangerous conflict, but it does say something about an attitude towards one’s neighbors.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Saintly_Loser

The parking of strollers so as to block the exit, when there are more convenient places, including a special stroller parking area, and the congregation of men at the entrance, who don’t volunteer to move out of the way, and when asked to move aside, ignore the asker, or feign ignorance of English, is pretty clearly intentional.

It’s possible that the men congregate there because of the female swimmers in the pool area.

I guess the test would be if they do the same to people bringing boys to the place or if it’s only the girls they’re trying to discourage.

Not the biggest issue in the world, and not likely to lead to dangerous conflict, but it does say something about an attitude towards one’s neighbors.

Hard to argue with that.

[Fiveyearlurker]

Jeez, I had finally stopped being angry about that This American Life episode, and this thread pops up again!

@BigT

Ressurrected and still not renamed? The combination of using Jews to mean “some Jewish people” and it being a negative thing sure makes it look like the OP is blaming them on being Jewish.

Nobody is blaming all Jews. Multiple Jewish groups have condemned this particular subgroup (bad form to call them a cult, for some reason) in East Ramapo over what they are pulling. A speech by a Jewish WWII vet, and alumni of the school district that he delivered at a recent board meeting seems particularly powerful:

"My name is David Lipman, Spring Valley High School, Class of 1939, from the original location on South Main St. Like many of my classmates, I went on to college; I became a professional engineer. Others became doctors, lawyers, teachers, police officers, artists, musicians. One became an actor, with an engineering degree to fall back on. Why? Because we were well EDUCATED. We were given solid foundations in all subjects.

During WWII, we set aside our studies and our lives to go and fight for the freedom of other people. I came home with a Bronze Star and permanently damaged shoulders from the tender care of the Gestapo. One of my brothers, Walter, sacrificed himself in the Pacific Theater to save his air crew. There’s a local Jewish War Veteran’s post named after him, you can look him up. As part of my service I was present at Concentration Camp Dora. There, I saw horrible, unimaginable things; things that do not belong in this room with children.

Then I came home, finished college, raised my family and sent my children to SVHS. My son, Walter is Class of 1972, and my daughter Ruth, 1976. Again, the Lipman family was well served by their excellent public school education. Both my children are professionals, and have a love of learning and reading, with inquisitive minds. Many of their classmates are likewise.

Now, I see what has become of this once fine school system, and I am appalled. I see that the perpetrators of this are largely my own people; people who were the subject of those unspeakable horrors at Dora and places like Dora. Is this how you repay the community to which you came? Is this why the people of this community fought and died- so that 70 years later, you could grind under your heel their grandchildren, as well as the next group of downtrodden immigrants?

I seem to recall two principles from my religious education; one, that we are enjoined to make THE world a better place, not just OUR world; and two, that we were strangers once, enslaved in Egypt. The Torah tells us that we have an OBLIGATION to the stranger- the Gentile- at least three times: Exodus 22:21, Leviticus 19:34 and Deuteronomy 10:19. And yet, this is not what I see. Instead of honey, we have poured bitter herbs on the books of these children, if they have books at all! This defames the memory of both the people of this community who died fighting against the enslavement and horrors of the Holocaust, and those who were its victims. You who are its survivors have a great obligation which you are failing to uphold.

It will take far more than 10 days of repentance to expiate this sin."

[Johnny_Bravo]

That’s a pretty powerful quote.

You have to understand that we Jews don’t look at the divisions (Reform/Orthodox/etc) in quite the same way Christianity has split into its myriad parts. It’s all the same tribe. So no, we wouldn’t call them a cult. They’re still Jews.

The ultra-ultra-Orthodox (who absolutely would not agree that Reform Jews are fundamentally the same thing as they are) are odd ducks. I think a lot of less whacko Jews see them as a kind of “necessary evil” That’s not a good term, because I don’t think they’re evil. Their rejection of secular and atheistic Judaism is kind of comforting. It’s nice to know that there are members of the tribe out there who are holding onto the old ways.

I just wish they didn’t have to be such dicks about it so much of the time.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Fiveyearlurker

Nobody is blaming all Jews. Multiple Jewish groups have condemned this particular subgroup (bad form to call them a cult, for some reason) in East Ramapo over what they are pulling.

Regardless of whether it’s some or all Jews, the point - as I see it, anyway - is the implication of “Jews take over …” is that this is some sinister takeover by some scheming cabal, when in reality it’s just a bunch of people who live and pay taxes in that district voting for an administration that reflects their priorities, much as any other group - cult or not - would do.

To use the example someone raised earlier, in the wake of the Feguson riots many have advocated that blacks organize to vote in more black people to the Feguson government, who would reorganize municipal administration in a way which reflects the priorities of that electorate. “Blacks take over Ferguson …”

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

It is a scheming cabal. It’s a perfectly legal scheming cabal that is doing nothing wrong (nothing related to elections, at least), but it’s a cabal.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Can you explain what makes it a scheming cabal other than the people involved being Jewish and “others”?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

It’s a cabal and they have a scheme. The people who orchestrated the Montgomery bus boycotts were also a scheming cabal, or black people organizing in Ferguson would be. I am not making a value judgment here.

I am aware that “scheming” has been used as a pejorative for Jews in the past, which is why I wouldn’t have used that phrase.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

It’s more than that.

Cabal (emphasis mine):

@Wikipedia

A cabal is a group of people united in some close design together, usually to promote their private views or interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue, usually unbeknownst to persons outside their group. Cabals are sometimes secret societies composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship. The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy. The use of this term usually carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence. The term is frequently used in conspiracy theories; some Masonic conspiracy theories describe Freemasonry as an internationalist secret cabal.

And the same goes for scheme. I don’t want to get hung up on the terms cabal and scheme, since I myself am the one who introduced them here, and not the OP. But the point is that the phrase in the title implied that there is some sort of group of Jews with an insidious scheme to take over the school board, instead of what it actually is - the normal democratic process in which a group of tax-paying citizens and voters elect officials who share their priorities in governing (and in the process tick off other people who have other priorities and whose candidates lost).

[Jackmannii]

@Saintly_Loser

It’s possible, but I don’t think so (and I’m not alone). There are other examples of inconsiderate behavior – their minivans are often parked in the spots reserved for people with a disability parking permit – but this seems (and not only to me) to be intentional. The parking of strollers so as to block the exit, when there are more convenient places, including a special stroller parking area, and the congregation of men at the entrance, who don’t volunteer to move out of the way, and when asked to move aside, ignore the asker, or feign ignorance of English, is pretty clearly intentional.

Some (or all) of this could be actual, purposeful shitty behavior.

For some reason though, I’m reminded of whites who are utterly convinced that black people repeatedly crowd them off the sidewalk on purpose.

[Fiveyearlurker]

@Johnny_Bravo

That’s a pretty powerful quote.

You have to understand that we Jews don’t look at the divisions (Reform/Orthodox/etc) in quite the same way Christianity has split into its myriad parts. It’s all the same tribe. So no, we wouldn’t call them a cult. They’re still Jews.

The ultra-ultra-Orthodox (who absolutely would not agree that Reform Jews are fundamentally the same thing as they are) are odd ducks. I think a lot of less whacko Jews see them as a kind of “necessary evil” That’s not a good term, because I don’t think they’re evil. Their rejection of secular and atheistic Judaism is kind of comforting. It’s nice to know that there are members of the tribe out there who are holding onto the old ways.

I just wish they didn’t have to be such dicks about it so much of the time.

I’m largely with you. But, personally I have no problem calling them a cult.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Jackmannii

Some (or all) of this could be actual, purposeful shitty behavior.

For some reason though, I’m reminded of whites who are utterly convinced that black people repeatedly crowd them off the sidewalk on purpose.

Don’t think so, and I’m not one of those white people.

Look, the Hasidim of Brooklyn (and of the East Ramapo School District, and New Square, and Kiryas Joel), wish to live a life isolated from the rest of the world, with their own traditions and language and habits and customs. And that is just fine with me, and even laudable, in some ways. But they want to do it in Brooklyn, or in Rockland County. And that doesn’t work all that well, and inevitably leads to conflicts of values with neighbors.

In the school district where this kerfluffle is taking place, a community that by and large sends its children to private religious schools saw no reason why they should fund (through their taxes) the public schools where children of other communities are educated. So they took over the school board (by legitimate means), and set things up so that they wouldn’t have to fund the schools, or at least could reduce the level of funding required.

This is a basic, and possibly unresolvable, conflict of values (we’ll leave the actual shady dealings with appraisals and the like out of the conversation for the moment). One the one hand, there is a value system that sees public education as a public good, one that is beneficial to society as a whole, whether or not one’s children attend a public school. On the other hand, there’s a value system that doesn’t see why anyone should pay for anything they don’t directly use themselves.

In Brooklyn, you may doubt my account of the (very minor) conflict in the park. But you can read about the similar conflict over the creation of bike lanes on city streets that pass through Hasidic neighborhoods. The Hasidim there (in this case, the Satmar Hasidim) objected, because women in cycling attire would pass through “their” neighborhood in full view of men and boys. This is real, this happened, and you can read about it in quite reputable newspapers without any reputation for anti-Semitism, like the New York Times and the New York Daily News.

[Fiveyearlurker]

@Saintly_Loser

This is a basic, and possibly unresolvable, conflict of values (we’ll leave the actual shady dealings with appraisals and the like out of the conversation for the moment). One the one hand, there is a value system that sees public education as a public good, one that is beneficial to society as a whole, whether or not one’s children attend a public school. On the other hand, there’s a value system that doesn’t see why anyone should pay for anything they don’t directly use themselves.

And if you add back in those shady dealings by which they managed to buy public schools and turn them into private schools at reduced rates due to bribed appraisers and you realize that this isn’t just a culture clash, but a situation where one side was outwardly trying to screw the other to enrich their own group.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

It’s possible that the men congregate there because of the female swimmers in the pool area.

I guess the test would be if they do the same to people bringing boys to the place or if it’s only the girls they’re trying to discourage.

Hard to argue with that.

They’re not congregating there because of the female swimmers. Or at least I hope they’re not.

I guess I wasn’t clear - this is a water park, with sprinklers and the like. It is specifically and exclusively for children.

[Green_Bean]

I’m not sure why any of you are doubting Saintly Loser’s account of the situation in the park. It sounds entirely in keeping with other similar incidents with the Hasidim.