And this is far from the first such story I’ve read about Jewish fundamentalists doing stuff like this in upstate NY.
Yeah, that’s my feelings as OP. But some people are so offended by it the thread was deemed not even suitable for any thread other than the Pit–when it was a simple accurate descriptor.
I was raised Christian but have been an atheist since I was in my late teens; and I wouldn’t be offended by a thread that used a descriptor like “Christians do this.” I would argue it as intentionally inflammatory or not well-formed if their Christianity had nothing to do with the situation and was irrelevant to the matter. But if you dig into the meat of this, it’s intrinsically linked to this Jewish community and the predominant form of Judaism practiced in that community.
To me not mentioning their religion in the headline would be like not mentioning the religion of those who run BYU or Notre Dame if I had a headline worthy story available about some issue involving those schools. Except maybe in the case of those two schools the public understanding of how they are inextricably linked to the Church behind them it may be unnecessary to specifically mention Mormon or Catholic in the thread title.
I think a title like “Christians in Kansas push to end teaching of evolution in public High Schools” would be extremely fair and accurate, for example.
Not sure why you’re digging in your heels on this, Martin. The way you phrased the title sucks. Sure, it’s technically accurate. It still sucks.
Using “Jews” with no qualifier lumps people like me in with people like them. It implies that what they’re doing is a Jewish thing, not a hyper-religious isolationist fundamentalist atavistic thing. It also reinforces some really nasty stereotypes.
Why use a phrasing that makes so many people bristle when something like “Hasidic Jews” or “Ultra-Orthodox Jews” would have been just as easy?
I’m mostly on your side, but I get the opposition. This example is different than your OP. If the title were “Christians push to end teaching of evolution in public high schools” that is slightly different than (and more akin to your title) “Christians in Kansas push to end teaching of evolution in public High Schools”.
The former has an implication that it is all Christians, while the latter implies a subset in Kansas.
So, “Jews in East Ramapo school district take over school district…” or better yet, “Hasidic Jews in East Ramapo school district…”, it would have been more accurate and less inflammatory.
But, the fact that it is a Jewish group is relevant to the story here. And, boy, did they not come off good in this story.
But they aren’t just Jews, they are a fanatical, fundamentalist subset. There may be other non Hasidic Jews in that district that have no part in it. The issue is not ignoring that they’re Jews, but distinguishing what type they are (speaking at the child of a woman who grew up in a similar sect).
This was identified in post #2 for this thread. There was no misunderstanding after that point. It really seems like sophistic butt hurtness past that point.
I was impressed with their organization and effectiveness.
Read post 3 where the OP refuted post 2. Note that Hasidim are not the same as Orthodox Jews, contrary to post 2. They aren’t even the same as Ultra-orthodox Jews, though that latter distinction doesn’t matter so much to me.
Put it another way, former Senator Joe Lieberman was an Orthodox Jew. He sure as hell wasn’t ultra-orthodox. This isn’t a case of merging Catholics with Christians: it’s more like merging snake handlers with Christians.
Cult leaders organizing their cult members is not particularly impressive to me.
It’s also important to note that there are many different sects amongst the Hasidic Jews. Some of them won’t even marry outside their sects.
The differences between the sects are complicated, to say the least, but one key difference is that the Lubavitchers try to recruit less-religious Jews. The others prefer to remain more insular. Because Lubavitchers are into recruiting, they get out there and deliberately interact with the non-Hasidic community. Also, the influx of new blood makes the group as a whole seem a little more normal to the rest of us.Groups like the Satmars prefer to stay in their own little world - and the Satmars are downright cosmopolitan compared to some others.
I can’t seem to find anything on what sect(s) did the E Ramapo takeover.
The actual TAL episode actually notes that at least one of the Jews on the school board is a non-Hasidim Orthodox Jew who nonetheless wants to defund the public school system.
Nah, it’s a fine thread title. A lot has been written and discussed about this issue in places not full of imbeciles who only care about fighting about the phrasing of a thread title so it’s no skin off my teeth that this place opted to bury itself in that stupidity instead. But in places where reason and reasonableness hold sway the thread title would not have even warranted mention.
“Hassidim” is plural. “Hassid” is singular. Should be “not-a-Hassid”.
Wow, you’re really an asshole, aren’t you?
Hard to know if he is more an asshole or an idiot.
The two are not mutually exclusive of course.
But I vote more idiot.
Meanwhile my bias against fundamentalists aside I do have a question about the circumstance based off of this fairly recent WSJ article (which noted the appointment of a state monitor). Not wanting to defend what my sense is a fundamentalist take-over with consequent mismanagement in pursuit of their own religious interests, but I do want to make sure I have a complete picture before I condemn too strongly.
The students in the district consist of roughly 24,000 who go to yeshiva and about 9000 who go to the public schools.
How does the state’s funding formula play out with such unusual demographics?
Here’s how I think of it - do you think anyone was confused and thought Martin was referring to* all *Jewis people vs. the subset in the area and the subjects of TAL podcast? I don’t. And if no one was confused what is the point of the dozen or so posts about it? People didn’t like the phrasing and Martin understood but disagreed with the objection. No one misunderstood.
I didn’t see this thread when it first started bit have recently discovered TAL podcasts and heard this one. I searched and voila, a thread about it! Imagine my disappointment when a significant portion of the thread was about the phrasing of the title. And here I’ve posted about the title.
Let me know the next time a cult is able to get elected to a school board or any governmental body and control property tax rates.
The title smacked of bigotry and was appropriate to call out. A reasonable interpretation of the title would be that local Jews in Ramapo (a town few have heard of) are doing… something. But these are fundamentalist Jews, which are really a separate category - a subset of a subset.
I’ll concede that the first sentence was reasonably clear though, which is a significant mitigating factor. Then again the OP also refers to the group as “The Jews” later on in the OP, which may give some people the wrong idea.
The underlying public policy issues are pretty knotty. Framing a good GD or even Pit thread on this topic would be a challenge. I haven’t listened to the TAL episode, nor have I read the in-depth article in NY Magazine. Part of the challenge is that this case has the whiff of sui generis. Those who seek low property taxes typically locate to certain suburban towns with the same, often ones with fewer families. (Others locate to the suburbs for better schools: there’s no contradiction there.) But Orthodox Jews need to be within walking distance of their temple, which restricts them to urban areas in the US. Or rather, encourages them to live in urban areas: I’ve known suburban orthodox Jews. But since urban areas often have lots of working class folk, this sort of collision becomes more likely.
Here you go. Wikipedia: [INDENT][INDENT]Several thousand of Rajneesh’s followers had moved onto the “Big Muddy Ranch” in rural Wasco County in 1981, where they later incorporated as a city called Rajneeshpuram.[8][9] They had taken political control of the small nearby town of Antelope, Oregon (population 75), the name of which they changed to “Rajneesh”.[10] The group had started on friendly terms with the local population, but relations soon turned negative because of land use conflicts, and the commune’s dramatic expansion. [10] After being denied building permits for Rajneeshpuram, the commune leadership sought to gain political control over the rest of the county by influencing the November 1984 county election.[9] Their goal was to win two of three seats on the Wasco County Circuit Court, as well as the sheriff’s office.[2] Their attempts to influence the election included the “Share-a-Home” program, in which they had thousands of homeless people transported to Rajneeshpuram and attempted to register them to vote to inflate the constituency of voters for the group’s candidates.[11][12] The Wasco county clerk countered this attempt by enforcing a regulation that required all new voters to submit their qualifications when registering to vote.[13]
[/INDENT][/INDENT] So far so good. Then this happened: [INDENT][INDENT] The commune leadership planned to sicken and incapacitate voters in The Dalles, where most of the voters resided, to sway the election.[14] [/INDENT][/INDENT] It was later known as the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack. To be clear and to repeat, I trust the Hassidim will do nothing like this. It isn’t their style at all.
Here’s another example, sort of: Colorado City, Arizona - Wikipedia
The title itself was, likely, just a minor bit of cluelessness.
Sometimes people phrase things … badly. Sometimes not on the basis of any … um … bias. Sometimes not aware of what their own bias is.
The initial reaction to it was a simple heads-up that it comes off badly, comes off like someone with a particular agenda, like someone reporting on Madoff as “Jew scams millions” (A true statement describing the situation that was.) And then a quick segue into an “on to the issue”.
The idiocy and assholeness was his stubborn and persistent defense of the cluelessness, the digging in deeper and deeper. Could have just said, “sure ‘local Jews’ …” or “sure 'local ultra-Orthodox Jews” But nope.
Stupid putz.
It’s true, this particular cult has an impressive number of cult members and therefore more power than most cults. Probably has something to do with this cult being around longer than, say, Scientology. Doesn’t make their cult leaders any more impressive, just that they have numbers on their side.