# JFK conspiracy... yes or no? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978 "2009-07-23T08:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/201 "2009-07-30T08:35:49Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > No disrespect to your uncle, but this whole line of argument is ridiculous. > > > [@](#): > > > > If I say that my Dad saw the video and he says that it proves that the cameraman was in on it, that means nothing. > > That is a very misrepresentative Straw Man. You twisted it quite a bit. > > Nobody here knows my Dad and there is no proof of his expertise on anything. There would be zero reason to even mention it. > > > [@](#): > > > > Plus, you don’t say what your uncle said about the video except that “something” is up because of the mannerisms of the agent. > > Another misrepresentative Straw Man. He said that the stand down orders would never occur like from his experience of having guarded Truman after the 1950 attempt on his life. > > So what exactly is wrong here? How can your uncle, or anyone else even know what is going on in that video? > > > [@](#): > > > > Surely you understand that it is not a valid debate point to say that a family member said something > > . There two choices you’ve got when it comes to my uncle, Agent Paul B. Doster: 1. Accept me at my word that he did say what I said he said. 2. Choice to not believe me. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/202 "2009-07-30T08:40:24Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The agents didn’t testify to what your uncle claimed happened. And they can’t have been in on the conspiracy, because then they wouldn’t have been “astounded and amazed”. So clearly the only option is that they were somehow \*prevented \*from talking: > > LOL. This hypothetical plan of yours just gets stupider and stupider. You actually want us to believe that the plan involved ordering Secret Service agents to lag behind Kennedy, then threatening them into silence? Why? Oswald didn’t \*need \*to have the agents out of the way to make a clear shot, and adding this twist in increases the probability of the plot being foiled or exposed by several orders of magnitude. All it takes is for ONE agent to be brave enough to talk and the whole scheme falls apart. (And, I’ll point out, these are men whose \*job \*is to throw themselves in front of bullets. I can think of few groups \*less \*likely to respond to intimidation than Secret Service agents.) > > Clearly Kennedy was killed by a vast conspiracy of very, very stupid masterminds. I never said I wanted you to believe anything, that’t you doing the straw man shuffle. The concept of threatening someone with harm to loved ones is a plausible theory. If you saw a UFO or got ahold of some kind of daming evidence of something and you were threatened with the death of loved ones, what would you do? ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/203 "2009-07-30T08:41:24Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > I’ve only used one question mark in this thread, rhetorically. My participation was only to try and relate how obnoxious it was that you kept knocking down straw men. > > I don’t care what your uncle said. Second-hand, twice-anonymous, non-verifiable opinions related by an online persona on a message board don’t hold much weight with me. Then there’s no reason to respond to any more of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/204 "2009-07-30T08:47:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > We can see them being told _something_ and one of them shrugging. Did any of them later clarify what was happening? He wasn’t shrugging, he was in essence saying WTF, what’s going on? He does it at least twice and the third time while standing back by the command car, he is either saying WTF or giving the body language, “Okay, whatever.” It’s really hard to misinterpret that vid. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/205 "2009-07-30T09:54:32Z")
What’s not hard to interpret is that there should have been 2 agents stood on the back of the limo and for some strange reason they were told to get off. The agent assigned to the right side should have been happy though because he’d have took Oswald’s bullets, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/206 "2009-07-30T10:20:06Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > He wasn’t shrugging, he was in essence saying WTF, what’s going on? He does it at least twice and the third time while standing back by the command car, he is either saying WTF or giving the body language, “Okay, whatever.” > > It’s really hard to misinterpret that vid. I’m prepared to assume that your uncle exists and that he said exactly what you say he said. I’m just not sure what we’re supposed to do with this information. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/207 "2009-07-30T11:25:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m prepared to assume that your uncle exists and that he said exactly what you say he said. I’m just not sure what we’re supposed to do with this information. Me as well. **Jakesteele** , nobody is accusing you of making this stuff up about your uncle. I believe you that you have this uncle and that he said what you said he did. But what I and everyone else is trying to tell you is that it means absolutely nothing. Your uncle wasn’t there that day and he is watching the same ambiguous video that we all are. To say that we have to counter a point made by your uncle, who is going off of the same limited information that we are, is ridiculous. And what are we supposed to counter anyways? Your uncle isn’t saying anything other that it’s “fishy”. Other posters have offered other explanations that you shoot down simply because of what your uncle said. Your uncle is not the final word the meaning of this video. Let’s assume that these agents were ordered to stand down by their superiors. Lay out for me the conspiracy to kill Kennedy that would flow from this four second video clip. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/208 "2009-07-30T11:44:16Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Let’s assume that these agents were ordered to stand down by their superiors. Lay out for me the conspiracy to kill Kennedy that would flow from this four second video clip. If the agents were specifically told not to occupy the positions that were purpose-built to protect the president, it has got to raise the possibility that his death was either a LIHOP or MIHOP occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/209 "2009-07-30T12:59:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If the agents were specifically told not to occupy the positions that were purpose-built to protect the president, it has got to raise the possibility that his death was either a LIHOP or MIHOP occurrence. Okay, let’s run with it and assume the possibility has been raised. All the more reason to ask if these agents ever testified about what is happening in the video. Surely if it’s obvious to someone watching the grainy silent film, the people in the film must have had lots to say about it. Were the agents investigated? Was the senior agent who called off the limo guards checked out? Was he disciplined or fired? What follow-up was done at the time? Surely if the actions in the film mean something, something was found, no? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/210 "2009-07-30T13:28:08Z")
A little context would be great as well. Where was this video shot? Who were the men in the video? Do we have footage of similar scenes in other JFK motorcades that we can compare this to? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/211 "2009-07-30T16:21:36Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > If you saw a UFO or got ahold of some kind of daming evidence of something and you were threatened with the death of loved ones, what would you do? Go to the FBI, tell them everything I know and ask for protection for me and my family. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/212 "2009-07-30T17:13:48Z")
I get the impression we’re missing the point. We’re supposed to be convinced by the implication and politely ask no follow-up questions whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/213 "2009-07-30T18:31:33Z")
Not at all. It does seem obvious that the questions you’ve raised should have already been asked at some point, so I’m fairly sure answers will be forthcoming very soon. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/214 "2009-07-30T18:31:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m prepared to assume that your uncle exists and that he said exactly what you say he said. I’m just not sure what we’re supposed to do with this information. At this point, neither do I. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/215 "2009-07-30T18:42:55Z")
I choose to discard it as useless, then. No offense to you or your uncle, but I need something more substantial. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/216 "2009-07-30T18:56:21Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Me as well. **Jakesteele** , nobody is accusing you of making this stuff up about your uncle. I believe you that you have this uncle and that he said what you said he did. But what I and everyone else is trying to tell you is that it means absolutely nothing. > > Your uncle wasn’t there that day and he is watching the same ambiguous video that we all are. To say that we have to counter a point made by your uncle, who is going off of the same limited information that we are, is ridiculous. And what are we supposed to counter anyways? Your uncle isn’t saying anything other that it’s “fishy”. Other posters have offered other explanations that you shoot down simply because of what your uncle said. Your uncle is not the final word the meaning of this video. > > Let’s assume that these agents were ordered to stand down by their superiors. Lay out for me the conspiracy to kill Kennedy that would flow from this four second video clip. But my uncle is a expert qualified professional, and the rest of us aren’t, especially in leiu of the attempt of Truman’s life. He was assigned to the Presidential after the incident and came into a situation where past measures were reviewed and some new, and tighter protocols were put in place. There’s really nothing to counter unless it’s my veracity. It is a point to ponder, a new, possibily meanigful element that could be factored into the equations. Just imagine you’re Einstein and you’ve got this grand formula worked out and it works really well except a couple of small things like “how could a mouse collapse the wave function?” My uncle said that something was fishy, rotten in the state of Denmakr, or whatever along those lines and he also said that that was a breach of protocol that would never occurr. I don’t shoot their explanations down because ‘he was my uncle’, I shoot them down because they range from a Forced Plausible™ (size 9 foot into a size 6 shoe) to sometimes shameless attempts to always, always try to come up with a mundane plausible explanation even if it might not be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/217 "2009-07-30T19:03:21Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Go to the FBI, tell them everything I know and ask for protection for me and my family. You’re avoiding answering the question. Once again: “If you saw a UFO or got ahold of some kind of daming evidence of something and you were threatened with the death of loved ones, what would you do?” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/218 "2009-07-30T19:18:09Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > But my uncle is a expert qualified professional, and the rest of us aren’t, especially in leiu of the attempt of Truman’s life. He was assigned to the Presidential after the incident and came into a situation where past measures were reviewed and some new, and tighter protocols were put in place. > > There’s really nothing to counter unless it’s my veracity. It is a point to ponder, a new, possibily meanigful element that could be factored into the equations. But I think our point is that, no, it’s not really meaningful by itself. Besides not having a context for this footage, you’re uncle’s contention that this was a huge breach in protocol isn’t supported by anyone else besides the video narrative you linked to. I have strong suspicions about that video narrative and it doesn’t have any citations to follow up on either. What were the past procedures? How were they changed? Even if you can’t find that, can you find anyone else from the Secret Service or even security consultants that can verify your uncle’s conclusions? It’s an interesting statement, but without some support there’s nothing to hang a conspiracy on. It relies on the fact that it would take 3 shots to kill the president. If the first shot succeeded then the SS agents on the bumpers would have been a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/219 "2009-07-30T19:20:32Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You’re avoiding answering the question. Once again: > > “If you saw a UFO or got ahold of some kind of daming evidence of something and you were threatened with the death of loved ones, what would you do?” He avoided nothing - he told you exactly what he’d do. And I’ve known a few SS agents myself and I can assure you they wouldn’t be hushed up by threats on their families. These guys would put themselves in front of a gun as part of their regular jobs; their families deal with this type of stress and danger on a regular basis. There’s no way they would be scared off by this, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/220 "2009-07-30T19:40:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > He avoided nothing - he told you exactly what he’d do. And I’ve known a few SS agents myself and I can assure you they wouldn’t be hushed up by threats on their families. Exactly, on both points. As far as I can tell, both jake and his uncle simply can’t process (or will not admit being able to process) something they disagree with, saying instead that there must be something wrong. Hamster King would go to the FBI - seems clear enough to me. And I find it hard to believe that a Service agent who honestly believed a supervisor’s action had led to the death of a president would keep his mouth shut under any circumstances. It’s not enough to say that these are incomprehensible - that Hamster must be acting evasive or that the agent must have been cowed by threats to his family. It’s creating information to make the facts fit your beliefs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978.md?page=12)