# JFK conspiracy... yes or no? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978 "2009-07-23T08:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/21 "2009-07-23T16:17:50Z")
What bugs me more is the ocacsional claim that Oswald couldn’t have shot Kennedy with any accuracy because Kennedy was _President of the freakin’ UNITED STATES_ and therefore Oswald would have been too nervous. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/22 "2009-07-23T16:25:48Z")
It seems pretty obvious that Oswald shot Kennedy. You have a mentally unstable, angry individual, who hates Kennedy and is a proficient shooter, who works in a building along the parade route, who was seen in that building at the time of the shooting, and who owned the gun that fired the bullets. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/23 "2009-07-23T16:33:42Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Heck, some claim that because Oswald declared that he was a patsy that he obviously didn’t do it. [/QUOTE] Well, I mean, would he lie?? If he said it, must be true, no? > [@](#): > > JFK conspiracy… yes or no? No…not unless you mean a conspiracy of one by a lone nutball who plotted to kill someone famous and decided Kennedy was his best choice. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/24 "2009-07-23T16:47:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems pretty obvious that Oswald shot Kennedy. > > You have a mentally unstable, angry individual, who hates Kennedy and is a proficient shooter, who works in a building along the parade route, who was seen in that building at the time of the shooting, and who owned the gun that fired the bullets. And whose palm print was on the rifle, and who was spotted carrying a long thin object wrapped in paper to his job at the warehouse from which JFK was shot on the morning of the day JFK was shot. Etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/25 "2009-07-23T16:57:59Z")
Look, Oswald shot and killed Kennedy. Lone gunman. Did he have help? Did someone encourage him to do it? It’s logically possible, but the fact is that there is no evidence that anyone helped Oswald or encouraged him. All we get are lists of organizations that might have wanted to see Kennedy dead. But the problem with all this is Oswald. If you’re Lyndon Johnson and want to assassinate the President so you can usurp power, are you really going to give Oswald a call? Everybody around him knew Oswald was a fuckup and a loser. What kind of loser defects to the Soviet Union, for crying out loud? If this is all a cover to establish Oswald as a loser and a fuckup, well the problem with this is that it requires competent secret agent Oswald to live as a loser and fuckup for decades, so that when he does get caught it will throw off suspicion. If you’re going to shoot the president, why not use a competent assassin who can get away afterwards not get caught? Remember that back in the 60s security around the president was extremely loose. It was pretty dang easy for Oswald to shoot Kennedy, now imagine if he had some training and support. He could have gotten away clean, easy. And the other problem is the very idea that a shadowy cabal had a problem with Kennedy, and therefore their brilliant idea to solve that problem is to have Kennedy whacked. How’s that work? Oh, Kennedy was juuuuuust about to pull us out of Vietnam? Kennedy was too hard on the mob, or the unions, or Castro? And Lyndon Johnson is gonna be soft on the mob? If the supposed conspirators are mafiosi I suppose it’s possible that they’re idiots. But if they’re government guys? The guys that ordered the Warren commission to whitewash everything? Why not just call up Kennedy and give him his marching orders? Or if Kennedy won’t play ball, he’s only got a year left in office, wait it out and make sure the next president is someone who knows how things work. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/26 "2009-07-23T17:00:38Z")
And then there’s Robert Anton Wilson’s old point about the evidence: if you believe in a conspiracy that could fake all the evidence against Oswald, how can you trust all the other evidence? Couldn’t that be fake, too? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/27 "2009-07-23T17:07:04Z")
I used to think there was more to the JFK deal than Oswald, but after messing around with a very detailed simulation, I’ve changed my mind. The shot just wasn’t that difficult from Oswald’s position. I could have done it easily, as could pretty much anybody with any experience shooting rifles. Oswald was a former marine. He could have, and most likely did, make the killing shot from the book depository window. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/28 "2009-07-23T17:10:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Kopechne was no ordinary secretary. Whoa. Are there people who think Ted Kennedy killed her to cover up the plot to kill his brother? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/29 "2009-07-23T17:14:09Z")
I took the JFK conspiracy for granted all my life until someone I respected as a very intelligent person told me LHO acted alone. That didn’t convince me, of course, but it gave me pause and made me decide to look into it for myself. LHO acted alone. That’s why I bother arguing with 9/11 CTers. If no one stood up to their BS, it would be just as commonly accepted as JFK BS, which very few people (offline, especially) stand up to. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/30 "2009-07-23T17:57:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And whose palm print was on the rifle, and who was spotted carrying a long thin object wrapped in paper to his job at the warehouse from which JFK was shot on the morning of the day JFK was shot. Etc. > > Regards, > Shodan But another beauty of the CTs is that any evidence you present to them was simply fabricated by the government. The palm print? Was taken from Oswald when he was lying on a slab in the morgue. Witnesses? Paid off or threatned. Photographs? Faked. On the other hand a drunken convicted felon says something completely unsupported should be taken as if the Word of God himself. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/31 "2009-07-23T18:20:06Z")
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022&q=President%20Press%20JFK&hl=en](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022&q=President%20Press%20JFK&hl=en) There’s one thing that has always stuck in my craw about the assassination. This video here shows the agents who rode on bumpers at the back of the President’s limo and were the first line of defense for an assassination attempt. They are the ones that are the most important because their job is to throw their bodies over the President and act as human shields as in the attempt to assassination of Regan. It shows the two agents being ordered to stand down and leave the President’s side. You can see the look of astounded amazement on their faces and their body language. I have an uncle, now deceased, who was a Secret Service agent who had guarded President Truman. He was a staunch, conservative who believed in the party line. He believed that it was the lone gunman. But when he saw this video clip he immediately called bullshit and said that that is not supposed to ever happen; leave the President vulnerbale to attack. He said that that would never ever happen under ordinary circumstances. He then thought for the rest of his life that the assassination was some kind of inside job. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/32 "2009-07-23T18:20:29Z")
I’ll just note that a couple ex-KGB guys said that the USSR created evidence and tried to spread rumors about there having been a conspiracy within the US government to kill JFK. > **[Disinformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation#Disinformation_by_the_KGB)** > > Disinformation is false information deliberately spread to deceive people. It should not be confused with misinformation, which is false information but is not deliberate. "Fake news" has sometimes been categorized as a type of disinformation, but scholars have advised not using these two terms interchangeably or using "fake news" altogether in academic writing since politicians have weaponized it to describe any unfavorable news coverage or information. > Where misinformation refers to inaccur... ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/33 "2009-07-23T18:23:15Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > So, for those of you who believe Oswald was the lone killer… what tips the evidence in that direction for you? Is it simply the Warren Report? You say “simply the Warren Report” as if it’s something scribbled on the back of a napkin at a strip club. The Warren Report might be the most exhaustive investigation of all time. > [@](#): > > So, if someone could show me the way to the LHO only scenario, I’d love to hear it. The Warren Report shows this. LHO found a place where he could get a clear shot, and took it. Anyone who is willing to trade their life for another man’s life has a decent chance of pulling it off, and that’s exactly what LHO was willing to do. > [@](#): > > The one problem I cannot solve is who exactly carried out the assassination, and why. No one can. We can all speculate (the mafia, cubans, the CIA, FBI, whoever), but we’ll probably never know. That’s a pretty big link missing from your theory. And in the end, all of these people still would have had to find someone willing to be their Oswald. An assassination like that REQUIRES an Oswald who is willing to give up their life, and once you have allowed for the possibility of Oswald, why in the world do you need to add a giant clandestine secret operation to explain anything? > [@](#): > > But one thing I have never been able to wrap my head around is the lone gunman theory. I know it puts things in a tidy bundle, and we really don’t need to think about such a third world tactic to happen inside the USA, but a coup d’etat did occur (IMO) on Nov. 22. It’s not a tidy bundle at all. Nobody wants to think that the greatest efforts of the entire nation can’t stop a single person from killing the president. It’s maddening to think about, and fucking terrifying actually. Of course it can work, though. It’s worked several times through history, and the only reason nobody has Reagan assassination conspiracy theories is because he survived. Kennedy didn’t, and that eats us up, demanding an explanation that still leaves room for us to prepare and prevent it next time. But we can’t. We can’t protect the president from a lone gunman any more now than we could then, and the only thing stopping that from happening again is that there isn’t another crazy guy willing to die in order to do it. > [@](#): > > Finally, I think the killing of Oswald by Jack Ruby seals the deal for me as a conspiracy. Oswald knew _something_, and whatever it was went to the grave with him. Ruby killing him makes absolutely no sense unless he **had** to kill him, and killing him in the basement of the Dallas police department makes it even more unbelievable. It’s not unbelievable. Dallas police were quite familiar with Ruby, as he owned a restaurant where he regularly gave them free food. The police LIKED Ruby. Coupled with the fact that nothing in Ruby’s background shows any kind of ties to any of the conspiracy organizations you mentioned, and the only logical explanation is that Ruby was not part of a conspiracy. Keep in mind, it was fucking chaos. Nobody knew what the fuck was going on, or what the fuck to do. Ruby happened to be at the right place at the right time to shoot the man that killed his president. How many people would have shot Osama Bin Laden on 9/11 if they had the chance? Ruby had that chance, and he took it. > [@](#): > > I know these small snippets are pieces of information you all know. So before I continue, I’d like to hear from both sides (if they do exist) on the board. I don’t think many people on this board will be willing to take your side of the debate. It isn’t exactly beating a dead horse here, but it’s pretty close. We’ve done the discussion a few times, and it turns into a pile-on. I’m sorry in advance for that. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/34 "2009-07-23T18:25:14Z")
Forgot to add this: One of the rationalizations I hear believers in the Official Story is that, “Our govt. would never do something like that.” I think that is very naive thinking on their part. The govt. has proven on many occasions that it is capable of just about anything. Examples, MKULTRA, Tuskeege (sp) Airmen, and a bunch of others. The govt. has the ability to carry something like this off and if they wanted to do it for whatever reasons, they would have no moral compunction whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/35 "2009-07-23T18:41:33Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But another beauty of the CTs is that any evidence you present to them was simply fabricated by the government. The palm print? Was taken from Oswald when he was lying on a slab in the morgue. Witnesses? Paid off or threatned. Photographs? Faked. > > On the other hand a drunken convicted felon says something completely unsupported should be taken as if the Word of God himself. They told you to say that, didn’t they? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/36 "2009-07-23T18:48:19Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > One of the rationalizations I hear believers in the Official Story is that, “Our govt. would never do something like that.” A rationalization nobody has offered in this thread. > [@](#): > > The govt. has the ability to carry something like this off Tell that to Fidel Castro and Osama bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/37 "2009-07-23T19:04:30Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > It shows the two agents being ordered to stand down and leave the President’s side. You can see the look of astounded amazement on their faces and their body language. Goodness. You’d think that those patriotic secret service agents would have come forward with that amazing bit of information during the post-assassination inquiry: “Hey, Warren Commission! I was guarding Kennedy that day and my superior, Bob Jenkins, ordered me to leave the President’s side right before we entered Dealy Plaza. I was **astounded and amazed** at being ordered to commit such an egregious breach of protocol. You should grill Agent Jenkins about why he did that!” Or maybe you’re just misinterpreting ambiguous body language in a grainy old film. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/38 "2009-07-23T19:07:20Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > The govt. has the ability to carry something like this off You can’t accuse people of thinking the government are saints and then turn around and call the government superhuman. At least not with a straight face. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/39 "2009-07-23T20:03:26Z")
I used to believe in CT. Various posters convinced me, with logic and mountains upon mountains of evidence, that Oswald and Ruby were nutcases who acted alone. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978/40 "2009-07-23T20:11:22Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > The govt. has proven on many occasions that it is capable of just about anything. Examples, MKULTRA, Tuskeege (sp) Airmen Yep, a government that would allow the wartime organization of a air group with planes manned by black pilots is capable of _anything_. :rolleyes: Your muddled reference is actually to the Tuskeegee Syphilis Study, a grossly unethical research project conducted by the U.S. Public Health Service (and which eventually became a scandal after public health workers informed the press). > [@spifflog](#): > > More anecdotal than anything, but this site is probably 90% liberal, and untrusting of the government. If you could find a group that would be inclined to believe in CT if it existed, it would be here. Hard-core conspiracy buffs cannot be characterized as “liberal”. This sort of obsession arguably involves far-right loons every bit as much as far-left loons (another example of the sometimes startlingly close resemblance between far-right and far-left ideologues). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk-conspiracy-yes-or-no/503978.md?page=3)