# JFK **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 2, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128 "2011-08-02T01:47:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/21 "2011-08-02T15:08:15Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > It puzzles me how some people love JFK, hate Nixon & vice versa. It seems to me that they had more in common than either of their fans will admit. I wasn’t alive for the Kennedy presidency, but I agree with this in one big respect. Kennedy and Nixon represented a generational shift. Eisenhower was of course a five-star general during World War II, while Kennedy was a lieutenant and Nixon a lieutenant commander, or in other words, the junior officers were taking over from the senior officers. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/22 "2011-08-02T16:13:39Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > It puzzles me how some people love JFK, hate Nixon & vice versa. It seems to me that they had more in common than either of their fans will admit. Granted, their policy positions weren’t drastically different, but their personalities were. When Kennedy was accused of buying votes to win an election (I think it was the West Virginia primary) he joked the results were so close because his father had told him “don’t buy any more votes than necessary. I refuse to pay for a landslide.” When Nixon was accused of his own scandal, he fired his Attorney General. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/23 "2011-08-02T16:17:05Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Barak Obama is similar to Kennedy in some respects: the charisma, the vision for America, etc. Fifty years from now, your grandchildren will be asking the same questions as the OP: why did people like him so much when he wasn’t all that great a president? The answers will be somewhat the same. Hopefully not for _all_ the same reasons. Kennedy is revered mostly from getting shot. His foreign policy was pretty much a disaster - the Cuban missile crisis was mostly due to his weakness in the summit, as mentioned, and the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Domestically, he wanted [tax cuts](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdXrfIMdiU), he didn’t do much for civil rights besides bug MLK, and most of the rest was inconsequential. The race to the moon was a good idea, mostly as an “Up yours” to Sputnik. Scientifically it didn’t do much that couldn’t have been done with unmanned rockets, but it caught the imagination. LBJ used his death cleverly to push thru the civil rights bill, so I guess you could chalk that up to his credit. Other than that, young, pretty, and lucky. Lucky especially to have lived in an era where the press was willing to give him a pass on his womanizing and various corruptions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/24 "2011-08-02T16:17:20Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > When Nixon was accused of his own scandal, he fired his Attorney General. Of course, JFK wouldn’t have had to worry about his Attorney General. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/25 "2011-08-02T16:17:32Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > It puzzles me how some people love JFK, hate Nixon & vice versa. It seems to me that they had more in common than either of their fans will admit. The Kennedy family provided support to both Nixon & Joe McCarthy at various times. Considering his humble background (& I imagine, an inferiority complex) I think Nixon would have loved being a Kennedy. People still moan about Nixon’s “dirty tricks”, but I’ve seen interviews with former Kennedy staffers where they laugh & boast about some of the crap Joe Kennedy pulled to put his boys in office. It was more than Nixon’s dirty tricks. People disliked him back when he was a commie hunter, going after Alger Hiss. As a VP, he was ineffective, and Ike couldn’t stand the guy, saying (in so many words) that he couldn’t think of a single reason why Nixon should be president. Then there was his infamous “Checkers” speech, and his sour grapes speech about how the press “won’t have Richard Nixon to kick around anymore”. The man just wasn’t likeable. On top of that, he was almost entirely unphotogenic, this in the early days when TV was just becoming the political medium of choice. Again, this is from someone who was around back then, and not seeing him through the fuzzy lens of time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/26 "2011-08-02T16:50:27Z")
He accomplished a great deal by dying. If you count that stuff, he’s not overrated, but it’s not like he planned it (presumably). ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/27 "2011-08-02T17:06:55Z")
JFK created excitement as President. He was the first one elected when TV was ubiquitous and he came across as smart, funny, and charming. That went for a lot. He was certainly a popular president when he was alive – his approval rated was never below 56%, eight points higher than the worst rating of anyone else. His average approval was 70%, also the highest average. His death sent his approval skyward. His reputation soared to ridiculous levels. Ultimately, people began to look at things more critically. He deserves credit for his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis (the Bay of Pigs was planned under Eisenhower, so he shares the blame; JFK approved it assuming the military knew what it was doing). The Peace Corps and the goal of landing on the moon were also successes. His domestic programs (notably Civil Rights), however, were dead in the water; it took LBJ’s armtwisting ability to get the laws passed. Vietnam is pure speculation. There’s no way of knowing what JFK would have done if he lived: he could have said “no,” but all the people who advised LBJ to get involved would have told JFK the same thing, so there’s no guarantee he would. Ultimately, most historians think that JFK is overrated by many. Certainly, he was not a great president, but he was far from a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/28 "2011-08-02T18:24:51Z")
One thing about the Missile Crissis I’ve read (did paper on it years ago). The reason the Soviets put missiles in Cuba is because we had (obsolete) missiles in Turkey, which Kennedy had ordered dismantled the prior fall. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/29 "2011-08-02T23:43:07Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > … Sure you saved the world in the Cuban Missile Crisis, but what have you done for me lately? Some argue that Kennedy’s weak handling of the Berlin crisis the year before emboldened Kruschev and led to the Cuban missile crisis. I agree with this. But I think he learned from those mistakes and ended up handling Cuba well. He may have grown into a great president. When people rate him so highly in polls, I can only assume they rate him so high because they’ve heard his name alot due to the way he died, not for any particular accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/30 "2011-08-02T23:57:39Z")
Like others have said John F Kennedy is massively overrated-the most overrated American President along with perhaps Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson. In foreign policy he was weak and waffling on Berlin, Bay of Pigs, Vietnam etc.-if Nixon had been elected President in 1960 there would have been no Cuban Missile Crisis in the first place. With regards to civil rights, he largely supported it because it was fashionable to do so. His probably commited electoral fraud in 1960, had an extremely licentious personal life (including mistresses who may have been a Nazi spy and another who was a Mafia moll), and had his books ghost-written. About the only good things he did was sending man to the Moon before the Commies and perhaps some of his economic policies. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/31 "2011-08-03T00:22:23Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s the assassination - as Jesus and Jim Croce can tell you, nothing does for your reputation more than a well-timed and publicized death. 😉 > > Jackie, the Princess Di of her day, helped as well to keep the JFK myth alive. Well, Michael Jackson will surely disagree with that. Joking, of course… hh ---
**Author:** ![YaraMateo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/58f4c7/32.png) [@YaraMateo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YaraMateo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/32 "2011-08-03T03:49:31Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s the assassination - as Jesus and Jim Croce can tell you, nothing does for your reputation more than a well-timed and publicized death. 😉 > > Jackie, the Princess Di of her day, helped as well to keep the JFK myth alive. I think that’s a big reason. He’s be forever young (for a president), handsome (for a president. Sorry the Kennedy men don’t turn me on), and full of potential. As you pointed out, (and there are more examples) a young death can lead to a legend. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/33 "2011-08-03T04:44:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Like others have said John F Kennedy is massively overrated-the most overrated American President along with perhaps Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson. In foreign policy he was weak and waffling on Berlin, Bay of Pigs, Vietnam etc.-if Nixon had been elected President in 1960 there would have been no Cuban Missile Crisis in the first place. With regards to civil rights, he largely supported it because it was fashionable to do so. His probably commited electoral fraud in 1960, had an extremely licentious personal life (including mistresses who may have been a Nazi spy and another who was a Mafia moll), and had his books ghost-written. > > About the only good things he did was sending man to the Moon before the Commies and perhaps some of his economic policies. And you have extensive cites for your allegations, of course. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/34 "2011-08-03T06:42:17Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > And you have extensive cites for your allegations, of course. :rolleyes: Since almost everyone apparently has me on their Ignore List, it won’t disturb the thread for me to post again. Has anyone ever debunked anything in Seymour Hersh’s _Dark Side of Camelot_ ? I’m not saying that book is 100% gospel truth, and much of the evidence is from sourced but unconfirmable private interviews. But to blithely prattle about JFK’s greatness while making no attempt to address the book’s charges is intellectual dishonesty or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/35 "2011-08-03T13:57:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Has anyone ever debunked anything in Seymour Hersh’s _Dark Side of Camelot_ ? > > I’m not saying that book is 100% gospel truth, and much of the evidence is from sourced but unconfirmable private interviews. But to blithely prattle about JFK’s greatness while making no attempt to address the book’s charges is intellectual dishonesty or worse. This[review](http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/hersh.htm) points out some of the weaknesses in Hersh’s research. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/36 "2011-08-03T15:54:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This[review](http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/hersh.htm) points out some of the weaknesses in Hersh’s research. I just re-read that review (someone linked to it last time this topic came up). Although lengthy, that review spends its first third pooh-poohing not any falsities, but that the book published facts already known. :smack: It then focuses on three women: Marilyn Monroe, Durie Malcolm, Judith Exner. (I think no one disputes that Exner “dated” both JFK and Chicago Mafia Boss Giancana; the controversy is her claim to have served as courier between the two.) But womanizing is a relatively minor charge (and anyway, it wasn’t a storybook dalliance with Marilyn Monroe that most offends, rather the continual use of prostitutes while President, as attested by several Secret Service agents). The book focuses its bigger criticisms on political corruption, support for assassinations, and the incompetent geopolitics that led to mistakes at the Bay of Pigs and in Vietnam. These are completely unmentioned in the review you cite. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/37 "2011-08-03T16:59:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Like others have said John F Kennedy is massively overrated-the most overrated American President along with perhaps Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson. Is Wilson overrated? I thought he was remembered primarily for getting the US involved in World War I (over the objections of most Americans, and after it was clear that the Allies were going to win anyway) and for being a nasty, vicious racist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/38 "2011-08-03T18:21:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I just re-read that review (someone linked to it last time this topic came up). Although lengthy, that review spends its first third pooh-poohing not any falsities, but that the book published facts already known. :smack: It then focuses on three women: Marilyn Monroe, Durie Malcolm, Judith Exner. (I think no one disputes that Exner “dated” both JFK and Chicago Mafia Boss Giancana; the controversy is her claim to have served as courier between the two.) > > But womanizing is a relatively minor charge (and anyway, it wasn’t a storybook dalliance with Marilyn Monroe that most offends, rather the continual use of prostitutes while President, as attested by several Secret Service agents). The book focuses its bigger criticisms on political corruption, support for assassinations, and the incompetent geopolitics that led to mistakes at the Bay of Pigs and in Vietnam. These are completely unmentioned in the review you cite. You asked if anyone ever debunked anything in the book. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/39 "2011-08-03T19:06:21Z")
If he had been ugly with a boring wife and if he hadn’t died early we would all be voting for him as the most useless President. Not necessarily the wosrt, just useless. Sure, he brought style and charisma to the Whitehouse and he made some bold proclamations. Otherwise, meh. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128/40 "2011-08-04T08:04:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You asked if anyone ever debunked anything in the book. “Debunk” is somewhat ambiguous. I was using it in the sense of “disprove.” I’ll stipulate to uncertainty about the Marilyn-JFK relationship, but I think Hersh provides corroboration of Judith Exner’s claims. But who cares? It is JFK’s flawed and hypocritical personal approach to assassinations and geopolitics which are the most important charges in Hersh’s book, and the review you cite makes no mention of those whatsoever. My question (“Has anyone ever debunked any fact…”) asked for trivial refutation and you gave it, but with no attention to what my real meaning would obviously have been had I been more careful in phrasing. In other words, you find it easier to attack my phrasing than to attack Hersh’s book. Well done. You’ll fit in real well in SDMB debates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jfk/591128.md?page=3)