# Jihad
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [November 13, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122 "2001-11-13T15:32:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/1 "2001-11-13T15:32:24Z")
From [What are the rules for declaring a jihad?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjihad.html):
> [@](#):
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> In Arabic, the word “jihad” means struggling or striving. Those unfamiliar with Islam tend to associate the term with “holy war” and the thought of Muslims attempting to scourge infidels from their lands, or of terrorists claiming their right to terrorize.
>
> In fact, the Qu’ran does call for “jihad,” but uses that term in the sense of struggling and striving to be a better servant of Allah–strive to put Allah first, strive to resist the pressures of society, strive to stay the straight path, strive to do righteous deeds, strive to defend Islam and its allies, and strive to remove the treacherous from power.
From the WSJ: [Jihad vs. Crusade](http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001224)
> [@](#):
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> The literal meaning of the Arabic word “jihad” is striving, and its common use derives from the Koranic phrase “striving in the path of God.” Some Muslims, particularly in modern times, have interpreted the duty of jihad in a spiritual and moral sense. The more common interpretation, and that of the overwhelming majority of the classical jurists and commentators, presents jihad as armed struggle for Islam against infidels and apostates. Unlike “crusade,” it has retained its religious and military connotation into modern times.
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> Being a religious obligation, jihad is elaborately regulated in sharia law, which discusses in minute detail such matters as the opening, conduct, interruption and cessation of hostilities, the treatment of prisoners and non-combatants, the use of weapons, etc. In an offensive war, jihad is a collective obligation of the entire community, and may therefore be discharged by volunteers and professionals. In a defensive war, it is an individual obligation of every able-bodied Muslim
So apparently, John’s comments are technically correct but misleading. Yes, the Qu’ran used Jihad in the context of internal struggle, but the common use of the term is not in reference to the Qu’ran but rather to the usage in sharia law, which does indeed mean “holy war”.
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### Author:  [@darwinicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/darwinicon)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/2 "2001-11-13T21:06:27Z")
As a long time reader of the straight dope, i was surprised to find such a poor answer as the one given for the question on jihad. Mostly because it was incomplete, to the point where it simply left out info vital to understanding this whole thing. This quote:
“Even in such a fight, civilians, women, the elderly, and religious men such as priests are considered innocents not to be touched; those who would attack an innocent are murderers, not warriors.”
Is true, but thats not all the Qu’ran has to say about fighting. Pardon me for forgetting my source, some internet site that gave quotes from the Qu’ran, talked about how it was ok to attack an area even if you knew there were innocents in it. The example they gave was when one army laid siege to a town, and even though they knew it was full of women & children, it was perfectly alright.
All the quote from the answer means is that as a muslim you cant blow up a day care center, anything else is fair game.
Im surprised that an answer with such a heavily politically biased answer got passed the editors.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/3 "2001-11-14T02:02:58Z")
I was under the impression that Jihad (with a capital J) referred specifically to the wave of armed conquest led by the Prophet himself that led to the imposition at swordpoint of the Islamic faith throughout Arabia and later North Africa and in following centuries much of the middle east. And that while Christians and Jews were considered damned to hell they still got some tolerence as “peoples of the book” (Old Testament), whereas out and out pagans were mercilessly slaughtered.
Not that the Christian Crusaders or even the Israelites conquering Caanan were models of mercy and pacifism, but I think that the Staff Reports reply vastly underplayed Islam’s military history. If my general understanding of Islamic history is wrong, please correct me.
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/4 "2001-11-14T07:15:08Z")
**Izzy** : Your definition is about word for word the same as Bernard Lewis ( the author of that largely fair article ) used in his book The Political Language of Islam. However he mentions in the book, that even in the classical period there were disputes over this. Even back then some Shi’a jurists pushed the spirtual struggle interpretation. So it’s not really that clear-cut. There have _always_ been doctrinal dispues over this issue. It’s just in modern days, more liberal Muslim traditions have begun embracing the spiritual interpretation. Religious evolution - Just as in earlier times many Imami Shi’a jurists rejected direct involvement in politics ( theocracy ) until the end times, whereas today one strain of activist, theocratic Imami Shi’ism rules Iran. Or from the Christian standpoint, the increasing acceptance of homosexuality by some liberal branchs of Protestantism.
At any rate the usual way this is divided, is to refer to the inner struggle with one’s self as the _Greater Jihad_ and the defense of Islam from its enemies as the _Lesser Jihad_. Even many militant Islamists ( NOT the Taliban, I’ll note, who take the opposite position ), regard the the _Greater Jihad_ as the more important of the two in terms of religious significance, while still holding that both are important.
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Lumpy \*
> I was under the impression that Jihad (with a capital J) referred specifically to the wave of armed conquest led by the Prophet himself that led to the imposition at swordpoint of the Islamic faith throughout Arabia and later North Africa and in following centuries much of the middle east. And that while Christians and Jews were considered damned to hell they still got some tolerence as “peoples of the book” (Old Testament), whereas out and out pagans were mercilessly slaughtered.
>
> If my general understanding of Islamic history is wrong, please correct me.
A popular view, but an incorrect one. Islam was originally an ethnic religion and sought no non-Arab conversions. Further, conversion ‘by the sword’ is at least obliquely condemned by the Koran and, although it occurred, was relatively rare in Islamic history. Expansion out of Arabia was originally motivated by the desire to bring Syrian Arabs ( who by then accounted for a majority of Syria’s populace due to immigration ) into the fold. Further expansion was opportunistic as Arabs sliced through two moribund empires, incapable of effectively defending themselves, the loot of which served to motivate and buy off barely converted and unruly Arab tribes. The concept of Islam as a universal religion was not firmly established until 749, over a century after Muhammed’s death.
The issue with pagans was a dicey one. Interpretations on how to deal with them differed. The Koran certainly does regard them as “ritually unclean”, but it neither mandates their slaughter, nor forbids Muslims to treat them with respect. In practical terms though, there were no pograms aimed at slaughtering pagans ( like Hindus in India ) wholesale - It just wouldn’t have worked for one reason. And most conversions in places like India, in fact the overwhelming majority of them, were the result of proselytizing. Indeed, in India the most successful missions were by Sufi’s - An odd feedback because Sufism was strongly influenced by Hindu mysticism 😉 .
- Tamerlane
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/5 "2001-11-14T14:02:15Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \*
> **Izzy** : Your definition is about word for word the same as Bernard Lewis ( the author of that largely fair article ) used in his book The Political Language of Islam. However he mentions in the book, that even in the classical period there were disputes over this. Even back then some Shi’a jurists pushed the spirtual struggle interpretation. So it’s not really that clear-cut. There have _always_ been doctrinal dispues over this issue. It’s just in modern days, more liberal Muslim traditions have begun embracing the spiritual interpretation.
That’s all fine. (I don’t think the quoted article says that it is clear-cut). What I object to is the implication by **JC** that the association of Jihad with a call to arms is done by “Those unfamiliar with Islam”, and with his specious contradiction of this association by pointing to the Qu’ran’s use of the term.
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/6 "2001-11-14T14:40:52Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by IzzyR \*
> \*\*That’s all fine. (I don’t think the quoted article says that it is clear-cut). What I object to is the implication by **JC** that the association of Jihad with a call to arms is done by “Those unfamiliar with Islam”, and with his specious contradiction of this association by pointing to the Qu’ran’s use of the term. \*\*
Hmmm…Well I don’t think that implication was all that strong, myself 🙂 .
I thought it was a fair answer. He does mention that it can mean a call to arms ( which it certainly can and often does ). And he correctly stated that the Koran’s language is couched in defensive terms and forbids the slaughter of non-combatants. Of course, many Muslims have often subscribed to the idea that ‘the best defense is a good offense’, extremists find it easy to manufacture “threats” were none really exists, and some nutjobs ( re: ObL ) have sought loopholes to try to justify the killing of innocents.
Because I find it of interest and it’s somewhat related, I’ll post this link again to an article that seeks to analyze ObL’s statements for their Islamic content and tease out his personal theology:
[http://web.utk.edu/~warda/bin\_ladin\_and\_quran.htm#\_ftnref1](http://web.utk.edu/~warda/bin_ladin_and_quran.htm#_ftnref1)
- Tamerlane
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Arctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Arctus)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/7 "2001-11-14T16:02:59Z")
Another fine point: it’s been reported that Arabic translations of the Christian Gospels refer to the internal struggle of Jesus of Nazareth in the Garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion as a “jihad.”
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/8 "2001-11-14T22:51:07Z")
I was just happy he liked Malkavians. They are some crazy bastards!
~erl, Jyhad player
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### Author:  [@coffeecam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecam)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/9 "2001-11-16T14:37:48Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by erislover \*
> \*\*I was just happy he liked Malkavians. They are some crazy bastards!
>
> ~erl, Jyhad player \*\*
lol. I read this and nearly died. The game was dead for so long I didn’t expect to see a comment on it here. Tournment in Madison WI this sunday, no fee, if anyone is interested.
Cameron
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/10 "2001-11-16T17:07:55Z")
Gah! [mumble grumble WI too far away grumble]
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### Author:  [@coffeecam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecam)
#### Post date: [November 17, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/11 "2001-11-17T06:16:56Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by erislover \*
> \*\*Gah! [mumble grumble WI too far away grumble] \*\*
D’oh. That’s no good. Not that I need competition in the Malk/Ventrue department. besides Mass. has good games around the Boston area no?
Cameron
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [November 17, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/12 "2001-11-17T15:32:24Z")
[sub]sorry[/sub]
Hey, I don’t know… do they?! Where would I go to find out?
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### Author:  [@coffeecam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecam)
#### Post date: [November 17, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jihad/93122/13 "2001-11-17T16:30:40Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by erislover \*
> \*\*[sub]sorry[/sub]
> Hey, I don’t know… do they?! Where would I go to find out? \*\*
sent you an e-mail with more info.
Cameron