# Jim Crow era convictions need to expunged, and the victims need to be compensated **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831 "2010-12-30T15:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/41 "2010-12-30T18:53:29Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > What’s worse: the denial of basic human rights or spilling a lot of oil? I don’t know how you would even start to compare the two things. It’s not a contest in any case. > [@](#): > > Do you think the convictions of people that were denied fair trials should stand because their were a lot of such trials, making it expensive to fix the problem? I think there is already an appeals process to deal with these kinds of situations. Some might still exist, but I think most were dealt with decades ago. You haven’t convinced me that the problem still exists, much less that each state needs to spend somewhere between millions and hundreds of billions of dollars to fix it. > [@](#): > > If a retrial is not feasible, the conviction should be dropped. That’s not enough reason to void a conviction. Particularly since most people who get jail sentences of this length get them for murder and other violent felonies. > [@](#): > > What amount do you think the compensation should be? I’ll say several million dollars each for people whose convictions are overturned. As far as I can tell, that’s how it’s done now. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/42 "2010-12-30T18:54:07Z")
Seriously you guys? Why are you bothering responding to this? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/43 "2010-12-30T18:58:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, please do tell us all the black people in positions of power in 1963 Alabama. A few mayors, at best, I’d guess. I wasn’t confining myself to Alabama, nor did the OP, so the number is actually several hundred. [Cite.](http://www.google.com/#q=black+elected+officials+history&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=GNUcTevyHJGosAOu6JXSAg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&sqi=2&ved=0CF0Q5wIwCg&fp=bdddfab3d4d782f2) I am sure most of them are dead by now, but then again so are black convicts from the same period. Which is another factor making the idea of a do-over so ridiculous. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/44 "2010-12-30T19:00:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You do realize that your scheme would very likely violate the clauses of t[he US Constitution prohibiting _ex post facto_ laws](http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto), do you not? Requiring re-trials would not be an _ex post facto_ violation nor would compensating the victims. Seeking convictions of the state perpetrators would not be a violation if we can find laws that were on the books were the statute of limitations has not run. > [@](#): > > I would also like you to consider **Mr. Miskatonic** ’s very cogent point, that cases of true racism leading to conviction were a small minority of the total. Then as now, most crime was inter-racial, and most of the crimes committed by blacks were against other blacks. You will then need to explain to a large number of black families that the person who robbed/raped/assaulted/murdered/etc. them or some member of their families that the perps were going to receive tens of millions of dollars for doing so - and that the money was going to come out of their taxes. > > Regards, > Shodan Blacks were not allowed on juries. Because of the Jim Crow laws, whites were not blacks legal peers, because whites and blacks were different classes with different rights under the law. Blacks were denied the ability to vote and have a voice in the law. Blacks were denied the ability to serve as elected official and have a voice in the law. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/45 "2010-12-30T19:01:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ] I am sure most of them are dead by now, but then again so are black convicts from the same period. Which is another factor making the idea of a do-over so ridiculous. > > Regards, > Shodan You don’t think there are people who convicted of crimes in the late 50s and early 60s that are still in jail? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/46 "2010-12-30T19:01:57Z")
My grandfather was killed by nazis. Germany owes me infinity dollars because I’d not accept any amount to kill a family member. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/47 "2010-12-30T19:03:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Even those accused of black-on-black crimes might have suffered, if an all-white and bigoted jury just assumed that all blacks are inherently criminal. But I’m not endorsing the OP in any way. We have no idea of the number of convicted people who were actually innocent and who were convicted because of racism. It is clearly \> 0 and much less than 100%. In response to that, consider the first fate of ‘Mr. Freeman’ who molested a very young Maya Angelou during that era and was found guilty but sentenced to just one day.\* - And was kicked to death, presumably by Maya’s uncles, the day after he got out. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/48 "2010-12-30T19:06:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I wasn’t confining myself to Alabama, nor did the OP, so the number is actually several hundred. [Cite.](http://www.google.com/#q=black+elected+officials+history&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=GNUcTevyHJGosAOu6JXSAg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&sqi=2&ved=0CF0Q5wIwCg&fp=bdddfab3d4d782f2) I am sure most of them are dead by now, but then again so are black convicts from the same period. Which is another factor making the idea of a do-over so ridiculous. > > Regards, > Shodan Just an example, of course, and we’re only talking the South here, since there weren’t Jim Crow laws in the North (though I’m sure there were biased juries.) I can think of 3 or 4 black elected officials in 1963 New York off the top of my head - out of the 300 nationwide in 1965, I don’t think your cite indicates that a lot were in the South. And we are talking then, not now. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/49 "2010-12-30T19:06:34Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > If I had offered you a $100 million plus $25 million a year when you were 20 years old to spend the next 45+ years in prison, would you have taken the deal? > > Now, that I think about it, the amount I gave is not enough. It should be a minimum of $50 billion for anyone that spent over 40 years in prison. Would you agree to spend the majority of your life in prison for $50 billion? Maybe it should even more. That completely misses the point. I didn’t say whether your numbers were fair, I said they weren’t _feasable_, as in simply not possible. You’d bankrupt every government in the union, and still wouldn’t have your program paid for. You might as well propose we give everybody Green Lantern rings. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/50 "2010-12-30T19:07:49Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > In response to that, consider the first fate of ‘Mr. Freeman’ who molested a very young Maya Angelou during that era and was found guilty but sentenced to just one day.\* > > - And was kicked to death, presumably by Maya’s uncles, the day after he got out. If you are going to add sexism to the mix, it will get way complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/51 "2010-12-30T19:10:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not enough reason to void a conviction. Particularly since most people who get jail sentences of this length get them for murder and other violent felonies. The Supreme Court never made the requirements for allowing black jurors retroactive, so even if they appealed, they would not have gotten a new trial on that ground. And it is a very important ground. These defendants were not given juries of their peers–whites and blacks were not legal peers under Jim Crow. The fact that they were convicted of a serious crime is more reason to require a new trial. These were defendants tried for very serious crimes without a jury of their peers. Leaving aside the amount of compensation, I think from your earlier statement you believe that black defendants were denied juries of their legal peers. Do you agree with that statement? Do you agree that all defendants have a right to a trial by a jury of their legal peers? Do you agree that a having a right to a jury of one’s peers is necessary for a fair trial? Do you think that even if it is difficult, we should give black defendants that were convicted under Jim Crow the fair trial (with a jury of their peers) that they were denied when they were convicted? Should every defendant get a fair trial? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/52 "2010-12-30T19:12:41Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > What’s worse: the denial of basic human rights or spilling a lot of oil? Spilling a lot of oil, of course. > [@](#): > > Do you think the convictions of people that were denied fair trials should stand because their were a lot of such trials, making it expensive to fix the problem? Yes. > [@](#): > > What amount do you think the compensation should be? They shouldn’t get anything. In fact, I think they and/or their heirs should be made to pay back all the money that taxpayers spent maintaining their lives in prison. Note: I don’t actually believe any of the things I just said, but it’s clear the OP badly needs a feeling of moral superiority, so I thought I’d just help out a bit. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/53 "2010-12-30T19:18:35Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The Supreme Court never made the requirements for allowing black jurors retroactive, so even if they appealed, they would not have gotten a new trial on that ground. So there’s no legal basis for what you’re suggesting, right? That’s on top of it being (I’m not sure what order to put this in) impossible, impracticable, and impractical. > [@](#): > > Leaving aside the amount of compensation, I think from your earlier statement you believe that black defendants were denied juries of their legal peers. Do you agree with that statement? Do you agree that all defendants have a right to a trial by a jury of their legal peers? Yes, and yes. I also think if you try to right every historical wrong (especially with money), you’ll never stop. There’s no way this works, and it just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/54 "2010-12-30T19:24:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, and yes. I also think if you try to right every historical wrong (especially with money), you’ll never stop. There’s no way this works, and it just doesn’t make sense. So let’s say we don’t compensate them with one penny. What about the convictions? Do we just let them stand? Even for the people still in prison? You have admitted they did not get fair trials. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/55 "2010-12-30T19:35:41Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > So let’s say we don’t compensate them with one penny. What about the convictions? Do we just let them stand? Even for the people still in prison? You have admitted they did not get fair trials. So can you give me examples of blacks who were innocent of the crime they were accused of, were railroaded by a racist jury, had all their appeals denied during the racist Jim Crow period and are still alive? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/56 "2010-12-30T19:58:35Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > Seeking convictions of the state perpetrators would not be a violation if we can find laws that were on the books were the statute of limitations has not run. I was talking about this foolishness - > [@](#): > > The federal government should also seek ongoing conspiracy convictions against any state official that played any role in any state or local government that operated under Jim Crow. On what law will you rely to indict and prosecute state officials for serving in government prior to 1965? I thought you were suggesting charging them with human rights violations merely for serving in government. I don’t think there is currently any law saying that it is a human rights violation to work for the government prior to 1965, and passing one to make it illegal retroactively runs into the _ex post facto_ provisions previously mentioned. > [@](#): > > You don’t think there are people who convicted of crimes in the late 50s and early 60s that are still in jail? I think they are pretty rare, yes. I thought you were talking about re-trying _all_ felony and misdemeanor convictions. Has that changed? How about the part where we pay them millions even if they turn out to be guilty? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/57 "2010-12-30T23:31:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I was talking about this foolishness - On what law will you rely to indict and prosecute state officials for serving in government prior to 1965? I thought you were suggesting charging them with human rights violations merely for serving in government. I don’t think there is currently any law saying that it is a human rights violation to work for the government prior to 1965, and passing one to make it illegal retroactively runs into the _ex post facto_ provisions previously mentioned. I think laws like kidnapping, battery, assault, murder would cover the things that were done. Since these activities were well known, anyone who joined the government knew they were joining a criminal organization and conspired to commit these crimes even if they were not personally aware of every crime. > [@](#): > > I think they are pretty rare, yes. I thought you were talking about re-trying _all_ felony and misdemeanor convictions. Has that changed? How about the part where we pay them millions even if they turn out to be guilty? > > Regards, > Shodan Eventually, we need to get to them all, but we should start with the people in prison right now. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/58 "2010-12-30T23:44:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Just an example, of course, and we’re only talking the South here, since there weren’t Jim Crow laws in the North (though I’m sure there were biased juries.) I can think of 3 or 4 black elected officials in 1963 New York off the top of my head - out of the 300 nationwide in 1965, I don’t think your cite indicates that a lot were in the South. And we are talking then, not now. There were some Jim Crow laws in the North, just thought I’d correct that assuming you weren’t being facetious. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/59 "2010-12-30T23:47:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I would not have done it for any dollar amount. And I still wouldn’t. No amount is enough, so throwing insane amounts of money around does not help. Say you find three of these people in Mississippi. The state is now bankrupt and has to slash all kinds of essential services to start paying down this crippling deficit. You’ve just damaged the quality of life of millions or people to compensate three people. How is that justice, and on what planet is it a good idea? Let me see if I get this correctly. If three black people are serving prison terms for crimes they did not commit, they should not be compensated because it would bankrupt the state? That’s like saying “I falsely imprisoned you and robbed you of xx years of wages and productivity but to punish me would ruin me and my family”. That is not logical and for a person it would not hold up as a defense against liability in a court of law. That is, IF this is what you’re saying. I do not like the idea of mass reparations for blacks but for those who are alive and who have been wronged, rule of law does say you compensate those that have been wronged. As a Libertarian I must also point out that the State subjected these black people to exactly the kind of oppression that you can come to expect from having too much Government around. They had no Constitutional right to decline due process for these individuals. Going bankrupt is a heavy price to pay but if that is what must occur then it is a logical and necessary consequence. Such actions must be punished. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/60 "2010-12-30T23:53:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There were some Jim Crow laws in the North, just thought I’d correct that assuming you weren’t being facetious. Not in 1963 in New York, not that I could remember. If you consider Maryland the North, then maybe (I’d have to look it up.) I doubt earlier either. When my mother went to Georgia in 1944 to be near my father in an army camp, she outraged the locals by drinking from the colored fountains, since she thought the distinction was stupid. Note I’m not saying we were free from discrimination - just that it wasn’t legally established in the early 1960s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831.md?page=4)