# Jim Crow era convictions need to expunged, and the victims need to be compensated **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831 "2010-12-30T15:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/61 "2010-12-30T23:53:08Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Let me see if I get this correctly. If three black people are serving prison terms for crimes they did not commit, they should not be compensated because it would bankrupt the state? That’s like saying “I falsely imprisoned you and robbed you of xx years of wages and productivity but to punish me would ruin me and my family”. That is not logical and for a person it would not hold up as a defense against liability in a court of law. That is, IF this is what you’re saying. > > I do not like the idea of mass reparations for blacks but for those who are alive and who have been wronged, rule of law does say you compensate those that have been wronged. > > As a Libertarian I must also point out that the State subjected these black people to exactly the kind of oppression that you can come to expect from having too much Government around. They had no Constitutional right to decline due process for these individuals. Going bankrupt is a heavy price to pay but if that is what must occur then it is a logical and necessary consequence. Such actions must be punished. Rule of law says that compensation be based on damages done. Believe it or not there are legal precedents for how much damages (in terms of dollars) the court systems feels you suffered from things like wrongful convictions, losing a child, spouse or et cetera. Just because the “man on the street” would say “I wouldn’t trade my child’s life for anything in the world” doesn’t mean the courts look at it and say “well, since people would never willingly trade their liberty for 40 years, or the life of a family member, when someone loses their liberty or a family member through the negligence of the state or some other party we’ll just award them damages of TEN ZILLION DOLLARS.” Unlike the OP, courts have to do things based on reality. Which means a long prison term usually nets you several hundred thousand to a few million dollars, a wrongful death will generally net you a few million. Some States have headed this off at the pass by establishing statutory provisions for compensating persons who have been wrongfully convicted. Those, as were mentioned upthread, tend to award things in the range of $25,000-30,000 per year of wrongful imprisonment. States which do not have such statutes tend to be at the mercy of the legal system as to how much they have to pay if they lose a wrongful death suit (of course, sometimes the award in such cases might be smaller than what is specified in some state’s statutes.) I see no reason that we should throw out logic and legal precedent and start talking about awarding people billions of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/62 "2010-12-30T23:55:33Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > On March 6, 1961, Executive Order 10935 was signed, marking the beginning of Affirmative Action. Every white person in the country should get $100 million dollars, and $25 million per year for every year since. > > What? Makes just as much sense as the OP! No. It does not. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/63 "2010-12-30T23:56:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not in 1963 in New York, not that I could remember. If you consider Maryland the North, then maybe (I’d have to look it up.) > > I doubt earlier either. When my mother went to Georgia in 1944 to be near my father in an army camp, she outraged the locals by drinking from the colored fountains, since she thought the distinction was stupid. > Note I’m not saying we were free from discrimination - just that it wasn’t legally established in the early 1960s. Then you should have said “in New York” instead of “in the North.” New York certainly had laws we’d consider to be “Jim Crow” laws during its history, though. I’m not sure how far back you intended with your “earlier” but since it apparently is in your nature to only define such vague things when someone makes an assertion that is contradictory to them I’ll assume you meant “back until New York did have such laws.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/64 "2010-12-30T23:58:03Z")
White persons have not suffered anywhere near $100 000 000 in damages from Affirmative Action. In most cases, the statistical likelihood of losing a job to AA is less than 15%, & in many many cases it is exactly 0 for all intents & purposes. Retrying a case, OTOH, doesn’t even compensate a man for his time in prison. Nothing can bring those years back. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/65 "2010-12-30T23:59:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > White persons have not suffered anywhere near $100 000 000 in damages from Affirmative Action. In most cases, the statistical likelihood of losing a job to AA is less than 15%, & in many many cases it is exactly 0 for all intents & purposes. > > Retrying a case, OTOH, doesn’t even compensate a man for his time in prison. Nothing can bring those years back. Still doesn’t mean you get a billion dollars for them. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/66 "2010-12-31T00:02:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Rule of law says that compensation be based on damages done. Believe it or not there are legal precedents for how much damages (in terms of dollars) the court systems feels you suffered from things like wrongful convictions, losing a child, spouse or et cetera. Just because the “man on the street” would say “I wouldn’t trade my child’s life for anything in the world” doesn’t mean the courts look at it and say “well, since people would never willingly trade their liberty for 40 years, or the life of a family member, when someone loses their liberty or a family member through the negligence of the state or some other party we’ll just award them damages of TEN ZILLION DOLLARS.” > > Unlike the OP, courts have to do things based on reality. Which means a long prison term usually nets you several hundred thousand to a few million dollars, a wrongful death will generally net you a few million. > > Some States have headed this off at the pass by establishing statutory provisions for compensating persons who have been wrongfully convicted. Those, as were mentioned upthread, tend to award things in the range of $25,000-30,000 per year of wrongful imprisonment. States which do not have such statutes tend to be at the mercy of the legal system as to how much they have to pay if they lose a wrongful death suit (of course, sometimes the award in such cases might be smaller than what is specified in some state’s statutes.) > > I see no reason that we should throw out logic and legal precedent and start talking about awarding people billions of dollars. The argument for increasing the payments _far_ beyond the statutory provisions is solid if you base it on gross negligence or outright malice, the latter of which would be easy to prove in a large number of Jim Crow-era imprisonments. This is a logical case for punitive damages. Of course I’m talking about a civil award of millions, not billions of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/67 "2010-12-31T00:31:11Z")
Does the OP really think that there is anyone who has spent the last fifty years in prison because he drank out of the wrong water fountain or sat in the wrong seat on the bus? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/68 "2010-12-31T00:41:49Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > The argument for increasing the payments _far_ beyond the statutory provisions is solid if you base it on gross negligence or outright malice, the latter of which would be easy to prove in a large number of Jim Crow-era imprisonments. This is a logical case for punitive damages. > > Of course I’m talking about a civil award of millions, not billions of dollars. Yeah, and there is precedent for cases like that, too. I think in the back of my mind I’m aware of a case where a prosecutor or police officer blatantly caused a gross miscarriage of justice and the improperly convicted person got like $5-6 million. No precedent or logic exists for numbers like $25million or $100million or $1billion or $50 billion. Let’s also keep this in mind, the court system isn’t ever going to do something that would bankrupt the government of the state beyond any hope of recovery. If they tried to do so the legislature would find a way around it, ditto for any Federal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/69 "2010-12-31T01:01:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Does the OP really think that there is anyone who has spent the last fifty years in prison because he drank out of the wrong water fountain or sat in the wrong seat on the bus? No, but they denied juries of their peers. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/70 "2010-12-31T02:07:44Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > No, but they denied juries of their peers. were denied ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/71 "2010-12-31T04:43:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Rule of law says that compensation be based on damages done. Believe it or not there are legal precedents for how much damages (in terms of dollars) the court systems feels you suffered from things like wrongful convictions, losing a child, spouse or et cetera. Just because the “man on the street” would say “I wouldn’t trade my child’s life for anything in the world” doesn’t mean the courts look at it and say “well, since people would never willingly trade their liberty for 40 years, or the life of a family member, when someone loses their liberty or a family member through the negligence of the state or some other party we’ll just award them damages of TEN ZILLION DOLLARS.” > > Unlike the OP, courts have to do things based on reality. Which means a long prison term usually nets you several hundred thousand to a few million dollars, a wrongful death will generally net you a few million. > > Some States have headed this off at the pass by establishing statutory provisions for compensating persons who have been wrongfully convicted. Those, as were mentioned upthread, tend to award things in the range of $25,000-30,000 per year of wrongful imprisonment. States which do not have such statutes tend to be at the mercy of the legal system as to how much they have to pay if they lose a wrongful death suit (of course, sometimes the award in such cases might be smaller than what is specified in some state’s statutes.) > > I see no reason that we should throw out logic and legal precedent and start talking about awarding people billions of dollars. Exactly. A man recently released from Death Row in Texas after 18 years is suing for $1.4 million, which is the statutory amount he’s entitled to, $80,000 per year plus free college tuition. The OP isn’t talking about a settlement of a million or a few million dollars for a relatively small number of people, he’s talking about billions of dollars for huge numbers of people. It’s not even a matter of “the state can’t afford to spend that money in that matter” - the state doesn’t _have that kind of money to begin with_. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/72 "2010-12-31T07:12:06Z")
What about the juries who voted to convict or the judges who presided over the trials or the prosecutors? Should they stand trial? BTW, out of curiosity, what state does the OP live in? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/73 "2010-12-31T14:29:27Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > No, but they (were) denied juries of their peers. Do you know what Jim Crow laws were? They had nothing to do with juries and the denial of voting rights. Jim Crow was about segregation - they were the laws that said black people couldn’t share facilities like schools, drinking fountains, restaurants, and public transportation with white people. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/74 "2010-12-31T15:19:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yeah, and there is precedent for cases like that, too. I think in the back of my mind I’m aware of a case where a prosecutor or police officer blatantly caused a gross miscarriage of justice and the improperly convicted person got like $5-6 million. No precedent or logic exists for numbers like $25million or $100million or $1billion or $50 billion. > > Let’s also keep this in mind, the court system isn’t ever going to do something that would bankrupt the government of the state beyond any hope of recovery. If they tried to do so the legislature would find a way around it, ditto for any Federal cases. I think we all agree that crimes should be punished. Moreso when it is downright willful/malicious. I feel I can safely say we also agree (except maybe the OP) that the punishment should not be downright excessive - and billions of dollars per victim would be excessive. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/75 "2010-12-31T15:40:29Z")
The OP assumes incorrectly that the standard for tort damages would be a retroactive asking of a person: “Would you do XXXX for $XXXX?”. If the answer is no, then the person should be awarded that amount. I wouldn’t choose to be paralyzed for a trillion dollars. But if someone negligently or intentionally injures me causing paralysis, the standard isn’t a trillion dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/76 "2010-12-31T20:24:55Z")
There’s no sum of money large enough to entice me into spending a lifetime as a prisoner. So by the OP’s logic, the amount of money a person who was falsely imprisoned is entitled to is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/77 "2010-12-31T22:07:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You do realize that your scheme would very likely violate the clauses of t[he US Constitution prohibiting _ex post facto_ laws](http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto), do you not? I thought ex post facto prohibitions were for criminal and not civil cases. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/78 "2010-12-31T22:40:31Z")
Can the OP give any real cites of blacks who were unjustly convicted under Jim Crow laws who are still in prison today? Come on, I’m throwing you a softball here. Since you started this debate you probably know a lot about this issue and gave it a great deal of thought. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/79 "2010-12-31T22:47:09Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Can the OP give any real cites of blacks who were unjustly convicted under Jim Crow laws who are still in prison today? Come on, I’m throwing you a softball here. Since you started this debate you probably know a lot about this issue and gave it a great deal of thought. Not to hijack your question, but I would be interested in just ONE person who: 1. Was convicted before 1965. 2. Has been incarcerated since then to present day. 3. Evidence indicates that his conviction was due to a denial of due process because of his race. (all white jury would qualify) 4. Evidence indicates that he may be factually innocent of the crime. Just one. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831/80 "2011-01-01T00:23:57Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not to hijack your question, but I would be interested in just ONE person who: > > 1. Was convicted before 1965. > 2. Has been incarcerated since then to present day. > 3. Evidence indicates that his conviction was due to a denial of due process because of his race. (all white jury would qualify) > 4. Evidence indicates that he may be factually innocent of the crime. > > Just one. Go to Georgia prison inmate site and search for Guy Akins. His GDC ID (the easiest way to search) is 0000361926. His incarceration began in 1933; he is still in prison; Georgia did not allow blacks on juries in 1930s; since he was denied a jury of his peers, his innocence is in question. edit - link: [http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp](http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jim-crow-era-convictions-need-to-expunged-and-the-victims-need-to-be-compensated/565831.md?page=5)