# Jimmy Carter and human rights abuse by the US. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037 "2011-04-28T15:36:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/81 "2011-04-29T15:46:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Heh. [/QUOTE] Before laughing perhaps you should have read the rest: > [@](#): > > We are not preventing them from getting food someplace eles though…like, say China. Or from buying food from someone else. We are merely not giving them our food because of the intransigence of their government. Because their government has created this situation does not make us morally responsible for their fuckup. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/82 "2011-04-29T15:48:29Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] We have an obligation to try. [/QUOTE] Excellent! See, I knew we could come to an agreement. Since we DID try, and since the NK’s rejected our attempts, we have fulfilled our moral obligations. Glad we could have this little chat. > [@](#): > > Starving the hostages doesn’t hurt the kidnappers. Giving food to the kidnappers doesn’t get it to the hostages…it merely gives food and resources to the kidnappers. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/83 "2011-04-29T15:48:31Z")
Withholding food does not affect the regime. The embargo is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/84 "2011-04-29T15:50:12Z")
We aren’t embargoing them though. As has been said several times, they COULD get food from China…or buy food from other countries willing to sell it to them. Kimmy might have to let a few of the royal concubines go, or perhaps give up that new palace or jet, but they could do it if they really wanted too. We are merely not giving them food until they meet the minimal requirements we have set…namely, that they allow us in to inspect their needs for food and to assure ourselves that the food is actually going to get to the hostages, instead of going to the kidnappers. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/85 "2011-04-29T15:52:30Z")
Setting those requirements serves no purpose. We aren’t hurting the regime,. we’re just starving its hostages. What harm have we done if we give them food and we don’t distribute it? How is that worse than not trying at all? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/86 "2011-04-29T15:54:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Withholding food does not affect the regime. And sending food does not affect the Korean people. So sending food is pointless. You are arguing that the US has a moral obligation to do something that is either worthless, or counter-productive. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/87 "2011-04-29T15:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Setting those requirements serves no purpose. We aren’t hurting the regime,. we’re just starving its hostages. [/QUOTE] And you base your assertion that they serve no purpose on what, exactly? Seems to me that they serve the purpose of assuring ourselves that the food is actually getting to the folks who need it, and assuring ourselves that what the NK’s are asking for is what they really need. And WE aren’t starving the hostages…the NK’s are doing that, if they allow their people to starve over this. For one thing, though you refuse to respond to it, they could ask China for aid. We aren’t preventing China from giving them food, and they are in China’s sphere of influence. And based on recent threads, many around here seem to think that China is an emerging economic giant…surly such a powerful country could spare a bit of food for their good friends in NK, right? Or, again as something you haven’t addressed, they could always buy food…there are countries other than the US who sell the stuff, and we are doing nothing to prevent that. > [@](#): > > What harm have we done if we give them food and we don’t distribute it? How is that worse than not trying at all? What good would we do in yet again giving into the NK’s demands if we don’t know that the food actually gets to where it’s most needed? How do we even know they DO need it…or that the NK government won’t just sell it or store it for themselves? Why is it unreasonable for us to ask for transparency on this? Why is it ok for the NK government to balk at this, and then folks like you say that it’s OUR moral issue? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/88 "2011-04-29T16:03:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And sending food does not affect the Korean people. You don’t know that. You do know that not sending food at all has no chance of helping them. A small chance is better than no chance. There is no moral argument at all for not trying. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/89 "2011-04-29T16:03:43Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Except again, the people in the hole and the people and the people that dug the whole are two different groups of people. Kim Jong Il will eat well tonight regardless of what sanctions we apply. > > Except several decades in, it doesn’t seem to work. We’ve been playing the sanctions game for a long time, and its difficult to see how the N. Korean standard of conduct could get any more minimal. > > No. But I’m not sure allowing a bunch of their citizens who had no say in the matter to starve to death is a good idea either. > > No question the N. Korean gov’t are the ones at fault. But I don’t think that necessarily absolves us of any moral duty to try and help large numbers of people that may starve to death this winter if we don’t help, even if a side effect is that it helps the N. Korean regieme somewhat. > > FWIW, I’m not even really categorically against the sanctions. I just don’t think its the “no-brainer” other people in this thread do, and I can see Carter’s point about the suffering it will cause. If we go ahead with the sanctions, does anyone really think it will cause the N. Korean gov’t to behave better? I think the chances of that are pretty small, while the chances of it killing a bunch of people whose only sin was to be born on the wrong side of the DMZ is pretty high. The fix all for this is to hand deliver the food of course (to the right people, of course) Just march right in and say “hey, if you are starving, I bring food that your government won’t or can’t give you” For an ass is an ass of course of course. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/90 "2011-04-29T16:04:41Z")
the NK governmnt is neither here nor there, xt. We have a choice between trying or not trying. Giving the people a small chance or giving them no chance. Morally speaking, this is a no brainer. What does the least harm? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/91 "2011-04-29T16:12:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You don’t know that. Much like Professor Farnsworth’s response to the assertion “You can’t own property, maaaan” was “Yes I can, I have a job. Now get lost hippie!”, the response here is of course _we_ know that, because report after report has shown how the NK regime sorts food among its populace and we’ve read those reports. What you do or do not know, however, is another issue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/92 "2011-04-29T16:14:09Z")
A small chance is better than no chance. What moral harm is caused by trying? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/93 "2011-04-29T16:14:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We have an obligation to try. Starving the hostages doesn’t hurt the kidnappers. Providing resources to the kidnappers simply makes them stronger, without helping their victims - thus _harming_ their victims. The outside world is, in effect, propping up the evil regime that is killing these people. It tried, out of simple humanity, holding its collective nose and simply handing over food to the regime, just as you and Jimmy advocate - only to see the regime squander that food in making itself stronger, rather than feeding the hungry. Enough already. The very definition of insanity is repeating what doesn’t work in the hope of a better result. Particularly where you are dealing, not with some blind force of nature, but with actively malicious regimes who care nothing for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/94 "2011-04-29T16:15:23Z")
There is no excuse to stop trying. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/95 "2011-04-29T16:16:31Z")
Would you prefer to send me raw cash, or would you prefer I send you my address so you can begin mailing cat food to me? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/96 "2011-04-29T16:18:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Would you prefer to send me raw cash, or would you prefer I send you my address so you can begin mailing cat food to me? I don’t understand the question. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/97 "2011-04-29T16:19:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You don’t know that. You do know that not sending food at all has no chance of helping them. A small chance is better than no chance. There is no moral argument at all for not trying. Try reading the cite of the Amnesty International report. NK was using the food aid as a weapon against their own people. Kim isn’t going to suddenly reverse himself and start acting civilized now. Let’s not be naive here. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/98 "2011-04-29T16:29:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t understand the question. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Personally I wonder how committed they are to that principle. I have several cats, but I really like video games. From now on I will spend the money I would have spent on cat food on Xbox games instead. If they do not send me cat food, my cats will all starve to death. How horrible it is, _of them_, to starve my cats to death. Damn cat killers, the lot of them. Are you going to starve my cats to death Dio? Are you a cat killer? Or will you send me money/cat food? I’d prefer the raw cash, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/99 "2011-04-29T16:43:43Z")
So you’re comparing Korean people to animals? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037/100 "2011-04-29T16:46:08Z")
Too funny. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-and-human-rights-abuse-by-the-us/580037.md?page=6)