# Jimmy Carter: Basic requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519 "2004-09-28T17:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/101 "2004-10-01T01:04:52Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Well, on the basis of exit polls, all the networks initially called Florida for Gore. I willing to go with the exit polls if you are! 😉 The President Samuel J. Tilden Library has a thorough documentation of them, if you need more research material!! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/102 "2004-10-01T12:34:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Shodan** , that’s an interesting clarification. But kindly notice that he did not ask her advice on nuclear war; he asked her what her opinion of the most important issue is. I think the point was that Carter was apparently letting a twelve year old set the agenda for his foreign policy. Which is naive to the point of being ridiculous. > [@Polycarp](#): > > If any person here thinks that Jimmy Carter’s past foibles are sufficient reason not to have a concern about whether fair and reliable elections can be held in Florida in 33 days – then he may be being a good Republican (or Democrat), but he’s being a damn poor American. Yeah right - anyone who disagrees with Carter is being a bad American. And anyone who supports Bush for President is a traitor, and anyone who disagrees with Bush’s foreign policy is a supporter of terrorism, and anyone who doesn’t support PETA wants to kill puppies, and so on, and so on. You people get so freaking excited when that kind of rhetoric comes from the right, and then turn around and do exactly the same thing from the Left. Whatever. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/103 "2004-10-01T12:43:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yeah right - anyone who disagrees with Carter is being a bad American. One thing is for certain you’re a very bad reader. He said nothing of the sort. Read it again. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/104 "2004-10-01T12:45:11Z")
**Shodan** , why don’t you address the question of fair (or not) elevations in Florida - REGARDLESS of who is raising the issue? Oh, you don’t have an answer? Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/105 "2004-10-01T13:13:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yeah right - anyone who disagrees with Carter is being a bad American. This is _breathtakingly_ dishonest. **Polycarp** was clearly referring to people who wilfully ignore potential electoral problems because of their prejudices about Carter. How could you even type that with a straight face? One can with perfect validity agree or disagree about problems in Florida, but that involves actually addressing the issues raised, rather than simply smearing Carter. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/106 "2004-10-02T07:05:58Z")
I’ve decided to read this thread as a sort of homework assignment for myself (the purpose of which is to gain a passing understanding of the related Pit thread). I note that three days have passed since the OP was created. Has there been any follow-up on the story linked in the OP? Thas is, has President Ford (or any of the other commission members, for that matter) commented on President Carter’s remarks, either in agreement or in refutation? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/107 "2004-10-03T02:31:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ve decided to read this thread as a sort of homework assignment for myself (the purpose of which is to gain a passing understanding of the related Pit thread). I note that three days have passed since the OP was created. Has there been any follow-up on the story linked in the OP? Thas is, has President Ford (or any of the other commission members, for that matter) commented on President Carter’s remarks, either in agreement or in refutation? Not so far as I can find, but Gov. Jeb Bush, SOS Glenda Hood, and several right-wing columnists have blasted Carter’s statement, some in extremely shrill and waspish terms: [http://www.11alive.com/news/news\_article.aspx?storyid=52516](http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=52516) [http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040929-091905-4368r.htm](http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040929-091905-4368r.htm) [http://www.drudge.com/discuss/viewMessage.php/18260](http://www.drudge.com/discuss/viewMessage.php/18260) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3695538.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3695538.stm) [http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15283](http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15283) [http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/004921.html](http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/004921.html) [http://jeffbrokaw.net/archive1/000877.html](http://jeffbrokaw.net/archive1/000877.html) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/108 "2004-10-03T03:46:24Z")
The USA righfully holds its head high when its electoral procedure and practices are compared against nations run by dictators. Of course when compared against many first world democracies, the American elections are a bad joke, particularly due to the corruption in Florida. Regardless of whether or not it might harm the Bush family’s control of Florida and the USA, you folks really ought to clean up your act. What went on and continues to go on in Florida elections is disgraceful, and makes your nation, and its incessant jingoism, look truly pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/109 "2004-10-03T20:25:43Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Regardless of whether or not it might harm the Bush family’s control of Florida and the USA, you folks really ought to clean up your act. What went on and continues to go on in Florida elections is disgraceful, and makes your nation, and its incessant jingoism, look truly pathetic. What country are you from, **Muffin?** Is it one that has cleaner elections than ours? If so . . . why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/110 "2004-10-03T20:47:59Z")
Canada. Where we don’t have the intrusion of political bias into Elections Canada, where local returning officers do not have anywhere near the leeway to screw things up as in the USA, where recounts are not avoided, and are made efficiently, where we don’t have either the chad problem or the electronic-non-verifiability problem, and where we don’t have the disenfranchisement problem. You folks should pull up your socks, for your elections are a tragic joke, worthy of a pissant nation, rather than a nation that supposedly holds democracy dear to its heart… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/111 "2004-10-03T21:09:50Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Canada. Where we don’t have the intrusion of political bias into Elections Canada, where local returning officers do not have anywhere near the leeway to screw things up as in the USA, where recounts are not avoided, and are made efficiently, where we don’t have either the chad problem or the electronic-non-verifiability problem, and where we don’t have the disenfranchisement problem. What is this “Elections Canada”? Is it a national government agency? Who runs it, how are they selected, and what insulates them from “intrusion of political bias”? And if you don’t use punch-cards or touchscreen voting machines, what do you use? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/112 "2004-10-03T23:17:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is this “Elections Canada”? Is it a national government agency? Who runs it, how are they selected, and what insulates them from “intrusion of political bias”? And if you don’t use punch-cards or touchscreen voting machines, what do you use? I don’t know what they use, but I know that I’ve heard similar things in the past, though it was on a very very liberal forum (hosted by the Independent in the UK) which is no longer there. Anyway, the “solution” often given is to use a paper ballot with a physical mark and generally one piece of paper per item to be voted on. I think another “solution” given was to use actual colored pieces of paper for each candidate/position. So, for example (and I’m just pulling out an example here), Kerry would be blue, Bush red, Badnarik yellow, Cobb green, etc. In my experience, the people advocating this also refuse to listen to anyone pointing out that it wouldn’t work in the US because of the sheer number of things that are voted on in any given general election, not to mention the sheer amount of time counting and returns would take. Note, I am not accusing **Muffin** of this, but this is really what I have seen in the past. Hmm, I wonder if I could go find some of those old posts. With the other board shut down, a board war would be impossible. Mods, any chance this would be cool? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/113 "2004-10-04T00:22:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is this “Elections Canada”? Is it a national government agency? Who runs it, how are they selected, and what insulates them from “intrusion of political bias”? And if you don’t use punch-cards or touchscreen voting machines, what do you use? Pieces of paper that have names on them: JOHN SMITH, BONEHEAD PARTY CATHY JONES, SLAPNAD PARTY BILL WILLIAMS, SPAZ ALLIANCE Each name has a box next to it. You pick up a pencil put an X in the box next to the person you’re voting for. You put the peice of paper in a big cardboard box. At the end of the night they count all the X’s and decide who got the most. It’s a phenomenally good system, and the history of recounts suggests it’s accurate to a degree that would make Floridian heads explode. Why you would want to introduce some sort of complicated machine to do what any idiot can do with a pencil I cannot imagine. Elections Canada is these people: [http://www.elections.ca/](http://www.elections.ca/) Not that every Canadian election ever held has been 100% perfect, but I like our system a lot better. How you would handle multiple voting issues I’m not sure, but when we have different things to vote for we sometimes just have different peices of paper. Works pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/114 "2004-10-04T00:31:51Z")
**RickJay** , thank you for coming in with exactly what I was thinking about. And I still say it would be impractical under our current system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/115 "2004-10-04T01:33:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Elections Canada is these people: > > [http://www.elections.ca/](http://www.elections.ca/) Interesting. The website describes Elections Canada as “an independent, non-partisan agency reporting directly to Canada’s Parliament.” The FAQ section says: > [@](#): > > The position of Chief Electoral Officer (CEO) was created in 1920 by the Dominion Elections Act. The Chief Electoral Officer is appointed by a resolution of the House of Commons. He or she reports directly to Parliament and is thus completely independent of the government of the day and all political parties. The CEO serves until retirement at age 65 or resignation. He or she can be removed from office only for cause, by the Governor General after a joint request following a majority vote by the House of Commons and Senate. > > The current Chief Electoral Officer is Jean-Pierre Kingsley, who was appointed in 1990. I guess that insulates the CEO from political pressure – like a judge is insulated. Maybe we should try that here for our secretaries of state and the Federal Elections Commission. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/116 "2004-10-04T01:42:54Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > **RickJay** , thank you for coming in with exactly what I was thinking about. And I still say it would be impractical under our current system. OK – but it **would** be practical for a touchscreen voting machine to create a verifiable paper trail. From “How They Could Steal the Election This Time,” by Ronnie Dugger, in _The Nation,_ August 16, 2004 ([http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)): > [@](#): > > The principal proposed security safeguard for the DRE system was invented, but not patented, ten years ago by computer scientist Rebecca Mercuri, now a research fellow at Harvard. In her solution, after voters record their choices on the touch-screen, they confirm them on a paper ballot that appears under glass and then push a button to cast the vote, causing the machine to deposit the paper ballot in a box that will hold it for recounting if that is ordered. The printer for the paper ballots for each voting machine should cost about $50; the total add-on could be $300-$600. Yet Jeb Bush and Glenda Hood won’t hear of it; and, considering how much money they willingly spent on developing the 2004 “felons list” that had to be scrapped, somehow I don’t think they’re balking at the extra cost. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/117 "2004-10-04T02:10:52Z")
Elections Canada is the independent body (as in independent from the government) that runs our elections. It is not a government body, and is directly responsible to the House of Commons rather than the Government. The person in charge of Elections Canada is the Chief Electoral Officer, who reports (yes, actually reports not only on the results, but also on the process and how it can be improved) directly to the Speaker of the House of Commons, who in turn is not chosen by the Government, but rather is elected by secret ballot by all Members of Parliament. It does not come any more non-partisan than this. The Chief Electoral Officer is appointed by Parliament, not the Government, and holds tenure until age 65, so the Chief Electoral Officer is completely independent of the government of the day and all political parties. Not only is the job secure, but is very well paying, at the same level as a federal judge, so the odds of political influence or bribery are extremely remote. We use pencil and paper. Polls are run in parallel, not series, so the time taken to count does not change with the number of polls reporting, particularly since the count for most of the nation is in well before the polls on the west coast have closed. Essentially, we vote, go to bed, and wake up the next morning to find a present under the tree. Here are a couple of informative links: Elections Canada: [http://www.elections.ca/](http://www.elections.ca/) Canada Elections Act: [http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/E-2.01/index.html](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/E-2.01/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/118 "2004-10-04T02:38:03Z")
Parallel, not series, and ongoing verification by the candidates (or their representatives). As long as each poll is counted at the same time, it really does not take any more time to count few or a great many polls. It takes a couple of hours or so for a poll to be counted. It takes a couple of hours or so for a hundred polls to be counted. It takes a couple of hours or so for many thousands of polls to be counted. Besides, even if it took a while, what’s the rush. As long as the results are sound, it should not matter if an election takes a few hours longer than a less reliable result might take. Aside from being simple and efficient, paper and pencil ballots permit supervision by the candidates (or their delegates) of the Elections Canada returning officer’s count. It’s a bit difficult to make a mistake (or god forbid put in a fix) when the candidates (or their delegates) are looking over your shoulder when the slips of paper are being counted. It’s not rocket science. Just simple procedures with strong checks and balances. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/119 "2004-10-04T02:51:44Z")
Waitaminnit…the CEO is appointed by Parliament, yet is free from influence from political parties? Really? That’s gotta be one hell of a confirmation hearing. I’m also surprised to learn that the Parliament is not part of the Government, esp. since they choose the head of it (the PM). I’m a pollworker in NYC, we use 43-year-old lever machines that almost always work perfectly well, and we’re not really corrupt, thank you. We also have pollwatchers hovering over us when we “close” the machine and numbers appear, and the numbers are read twice out loud among the team, with the numbers checked by another team member while they’re being written down. The City of NY pays me. I report to them only. I am as chagrined as anybody else watching the antics in FL and some other states (not that NYC hasn’t had its colorful tricks in the past) but there isn’t a damn thing I can do about it. They run their election, we run ours, as best we can. That’s the law and a big beaurocratic agency running every single eleciton in the country is not our tradition. We find it better to have one general election instead of forcing people to take time off from work and all several times a year for every sort of office. I’m glad Canadians can afford to do so, but we really can’t–and remember there’s well over a hundred million eligible voters here. There’s also that pesky Constitution of ours that mandates that we have to have all the Congressdudes and 1/3 of the Senators on the same ballot too–and various states will insist on having those pesky referenda and their governors and other officals like treasurers on the ballot too. Here’s the ballot for the last election we had–the [last primary](http://vote.nyc.ny.us/candidatesList.jsp) (sorry, PDF). Of course, all the ballots didn’t look like that, you only had a few races in your particular district, but in the General election zillions of offices are up. Each state has its own rules as to referenda and recalls and stuff, too, so not only would you have to rewrite the US Constitution, but a whole bunch of state ones too. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519/120 "2004-10-04T02:51:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OK – but it **would** be practical for a touchscreen voting machine to create a verifiable paper trail. From “How They Could Steal the Election This Time,” by Ronnie Dugger, in _The Nation,_ August 16, 2004 ([http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)): > > Yet Jeb Bush and Glenda Hood won’t hear of it; and, considering how much money they willingly spent on developing the 2004 “felons list” that had to be scrapped, somehow I don’t think they’re balking at the extra cost. Concerning the felons’ list, let’s stop for a moment and think about what justifies disenfranchisement, and how on the ground it relates to race and economic class. Up here we do not take away a person’s vote. Ever. The right to vote is sacrosanct. As long as there is a significantly disproportionate disenfranchisement of blacks in the USA, I will remain unconvinced that an appropriate penalty for crime is disenfranchisement. The selective application of disenfranchisement by way of felon’s list in Florida is something for which the responsible persons should be jailed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-basic-requirements-for-a-fair-election-are-missing-in-florida/266519.md?page=7)