# (Jimmy) Carter / (James) Baker Commission Report: Building Confidence in US Elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450 "2005-09-20T00:17:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/21 "2005-09-24T05:18:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But “mission creep” is not dishonest. That’s like saying it’s dishonest to use telephones for two-way communication because Alexander Graham Bell originally envisioned them only as a one-way broadcast medium. No, it’s more like saying that it’s dishonest to say that we’re invading Iraq to break up their partnership with al-Qaeda… er, to stop them from building WMDs… ah, to bring Democracy[tm] to the Middle East… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/22 "2005-09-24T12:31:30Z")
[Carter says he is certain that Gore won in 2000.](http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Carter_says_Gore_won_2000_el_0922.html) My admiration for Carter continues to grow. I will never trust an election with electronic voting machines. Without a paper trail, there is simply too much opportunity for manipulating the counts. I firmly believe Diebold left these doors open to aid Republican candidates. The photo ID sounds great. But the states must be willing to provide them free to non-drivers, else you essentially have a poll tax. I am opposed to regional primaries. A very effective system has evolved, where the citizens of Iowa and New Hampshire have made the candidates prove themselves at the “retail” level, before the larger states come in with more advertising based campaigns. Going to regional primaries would make it a battle of commercials and packaging, not of substance and the intense personal scrutiny that Iowa and New Hampshire provide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/23 "2005-09-25T20:26:18Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > No, it’s more like saying that it’s dishonest to say that we’re invading Iraq to break up their partnership with al-Qaeda… er, to stop them from building WMDs… ah, to bring Democracy[tm] to the Middle East… You are describing a situation where the “mission” was misrepresented at the outset, which has nothing to do with “mission creep.” “Mission creep” is when the functions of a federal agency or program expand beyond those originally conceived for it. Remember that whenever that happens, every step in the expansion costs more money, which only Congress can authorize; so “mission creep” is not something that simply happens in the absence of oversight. As for national ID cards, you still have not demonstrated any aspect of possible “mission creep” in their potential usage which we ought to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/24 "2005-09-25T22:22:55Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Well, it would be pretty convenient for me, with my home PC and cable modem connection to the internet, to just roll out bed and stumble to the computer in my underwear to vote. It’s much less convenient to have to get dressed (as in wear more than underwear), perhaps have to arrange to take time off from work or shift my schedule, drive or take public transportation to the voting place, wait in line, etc. Absolutely. However, absentee ballots are available to everyone so a computer has little advantage in convenience. It would also be easier for the unemployed to vote since they have all day to kill (they do have to wear pants). I’m just questioning your assertion that wealth provides an advantage in voting. Every wealthy person I know works at least a 60-hour week so it is a burden for them to vote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/25 "2005-09-26T15:52:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m just questioning your assertion that wealth provides an advantage in voting. Every wealthy person I know works at least a 60-hour week so it is a burden for them to vote. Maybe so . . . but, as a general rule, the farther up the socioeconomic ladder you are, the more freedom you have to set your own actual working hours; so rich people, or professionals generally, can give themselves an hour off for voting more easily than ordinary working folks can get permission from their superiors for the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/26 "2005-09-26T16:09:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maybe so . . . but, as a general rule, the farther up the socioeconomic ladder you are, the more freedom you have to set your own actual working hours; so rich people, or professionals generally, can give themselves an hour off for voting more easily than ordinary working folks can get permission from their superiors for the same purpose. Yup. I bet it’s easier for me, a software developer, to get a few hours off in the morning to vote than it is for a guy scheduled to work a double shift at McDonalds that day. > [@Magiver](#): > > However, absentee ballots are available to everyone so a computer has little advantage in convenience. What’s the process to get an absentee ballot? I would have assumed that voting online would be considerably less work than getting one, but I must admit I don’t know how one gets the ballot. Plus, god knows how unecessarily complicated they would make the hypothetical internet voting… It might be as big a hassle as going to the polls. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/27 "2005-09-26T16:52:49Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > What’s the process to get an absentee ballot? I would have assumed that voting online would be considerably less work than getting one, but I must admit I don’t know how one gets the ballot. Where I live, you can just call the Supervisor of Elections’ office and they’ll mail you one. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/28 "2005-09-26T17:09:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You are describing a situation where the “mission” was misrepresented at the outset, which has nothing to do with “mission creep.” Er, no. Both accidental and deliberate expansions of the mission beyond what was originally stated constitute “mission creep”. In the present case, we have the following dialogue: **Advocate:** Program X will convey this, that, and the other benefit, and will not be abused in the way Skeptic says it will. **Skeptic:** Precaution Y will prevent the abuses we are concerned about, and acutally enhance the ability of Program X to perform as advertised. Will you support Precaution Y? **Advocate:** No. The only reasonable conclusions to be drawn are that Advocate is unclear on the concept, or that Advocate has a hidden agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/29 "2005-09-26T17:43:38Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Yup. I bet it’s easier for me, a software developer, to get a few hours off in the morning to vote than it is for a guy scheduled to work a double shift at McDonalds that day. You’re arguing with someone who worked his way through school which included 2 jobs when I could find it. Oh, and I played soccer in college for 1 year and through all that I managed to vote. I envy you and your hypothetical hamburger guy’s free-time. > [@Revtim](#): > > What’s the process to get an absentee ballot? I would have assumed that voting online would be considerably less work than getting one, but I must admit I don’t know how one gets the ballot. Yes, voting online would be easier for people who are computer literate such as yourself. Hy-pathetic McDonalds guy will have to call the local board of elections or his local representative for an absentee ballet. The process involves picking up the phone and calling the local board of elections. > [@Revtim](#): > > Plus, god knows how unecessarily complicated they would make the hypothetical internet voting… It might be as big a hassle as going to the polls. Yes, and God knows I’ll be forced to pay for voting lessons so poor people can stand in line at the Library instead of the voting booth (ostensibly because punch ballots are too complicated). Of course, when I went to school we were taught how to operate the voting machines, which took all of 2 minutes: card goes in per the directions on the card, when punching a vote ensure to press all the way down with the punch. Don’t hold your breath for Internet voting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/30 "2005-09-26T18:12:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re arguing with someone who worked his way through school which included 2 jobs when I could find it. Oh, and I played soccer in college for 1 year and through all that I managed to vote. I envy you and your hypothetical hamburger guy’s free-time. > > Yes, voting online would be easier for people who are computer literate such as yourself. Hy-pathetic McDonalds guy will have to call the local board of elections or his local representative for an absentee ballet. The process involves picking up the phone and calling the local board of elections. > > Yes, and God knows I’ll be forced to pay for voting lessons so poor people can stand in line at the Library instead of the voting booth (ostensibly because punch ballots are too complicated). Of course, when I went to school we were taught how to operate the voting machines, which took all of 2 minutes: card goes in per the directions on the card, when punching a vote ensure to press all the way down with the punch. > > Don’t hold your breath for Internet voting. I’m unclear as to whether all this is an argument for or against the Commission’s proposals. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/31 "2005-09-27T01:14:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m unclear as to whether all this is an argument for or against the Commission’s proposals. It was a separate argument regarding the implication that wealthy people have an advantage in voting. Other than voter verification I am happy with the system as is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450/32 "2005-09-27T03:30:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Other than voter verification I am happy with the system as is. So you’re OK with a national ID card for use at the polls? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-james-baker-commission-report-building-confidence-in-us-elections/322450.md?page=1)