# Jimmy Carter, War Criminal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772 "2007-06-05T01:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/1 "2007-06-05T01:49:11Z")
So after supporting a terrorist, performing an abortion, and then kicking a puppy I was listening to some Chomsky, as I’m wont to do, and as an aside he flatly stated that every American president since World War 2 could easily be sentenced as a war criminal under international law. As I mentally went backwards from our current office holder I nodded with each crime I could recall, but I hit a roadblock at Ford and Carter. I skipped them and continued all the way back to FDR with ease. I had to do a little searching for Ford and I’m still not totally convinced you could get the man himself. You could certainly get many of his advisors, and there were certainly some really bad situations, but it’d be a tough case compared to a slam dunk case like a Clinton, JFK, LBJ, or Reagan. But Jimmy Carter? I can’t think or find anything on how he could be considered a war criminal. He said a lot of stupid things but AFAIK he didn’t pull coups, back death squads, invade countries on a whim, perform economic warfare, or go out of his way to give enormous sums to brutal dictatorships in order for them to clamp down on the local population. I could be wrong, of course. Does anyone have any ideas? I’m guessing if there’s a reason it’ll have something to do with Latin America… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/2 "2007-06-05T02:09:21Z")
You could be right. > [@](#): > > [The Culture of Fear > Noam Chomsky](http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199607--.htm) > > North Americans should never allow themselves to forget the origins of “the Brazilian doctrine, the Argentine doctrine, the Uruguayan doctrine, the Colombian doctrine,” and others like them. They were crafted right, then adapted by students trained and equipped right here. The basic guidelines are spelled out in U.S. manuals of counterinsurgency and “low intensity conflict.” > > These are euphemisms, technical terms for state terror, a fact well known in Latin America. When Archbishop Oscar Romero wrote to President Carter in 1980 shortly before his assassination, vainly pleading with him to end U.S. support for the state terrorist, he informed the rector of the Jesuit University, Father Ellacuria, that he was prompted “by the new concept of special warfare, which consists in murderously eliminating every endeavor of the popular organizations under the allegation of Communism or terrorism . . .” So Father Ellacuria reported shortly before he was assassinated by the same hands a decade later; the events framed the murderous decade with the symbolism as gruesome as it was appropriate. I don’t profess to know how Chomsky defines “war crimes”, though. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/3 "2007-06-05T02:29:59Z")
Maybe he could be conviced of gross negligence for the failed rescue attempt? 😛 I’m pretty sure that during the 4 years he was in office there had to be at least one covert OP by the CIA somewhere that you could get him on…if you are Chomsky that is. My advice is…go kick another puppy… -XT ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/4 "2007-06-05T02:45:30Z")
Wasn’t Carter one of the biggest fans of supplying Indonesia with the weapons for their war against East Timor? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/5 "2007-06-05T15:10:07Z")
On Ford’s watch there was the [Mayaguez Incident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayag%C3%BCez_incident) – wherein Marines attacked Cambodia, at a cost of 41 American lives and 60 Cambodian, to rescue captured merchant marine sailors who, in fact, had already been released before the attack began – but even by Chomsky’s standards, I should think, that was not a war crime but an oopsie. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/6 "2007-06-05T15:17:28Z")
It could also be that Chomsky feels that any president who allowed aid to be given to Israel could be considered a war criminal. Or aid to Egypt or aid to… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/7 "2007-06-05T15:27:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] On Ford’s watch there was the [Mayaguez Incident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayag%C3%BCez_incident) – wherein Marines attacked Cambodia, at a cost of 41 American lives and 60 Cambodian, to rescue captured merchant marine sailors who, in fact, had already been released before the attack began – but even by Chomsky’s standards, I should think, that was not a war crime but an oopsie. [/QUOTE] And didn’t they even attack the wrong boat on top of that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/8 "2007-06-05T15:39:41Z")
Well, I’ve been able to put together the following Chomsky quotes about Carter: > [@](#): > > U.S. ally China was a very large arms supplier to Pol Pot, with no penalty from the U.S. and in fact U.S. connivance—Carter’s National Security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski stated that in 1979 “I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot…Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him but China could.” (and specifically, on Carter as war criminal), > [@](#): > > In the Carter years there were major crimes, for example the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which happened to start under Ford and led to the nearest thing to genocide since the holocaust, maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the population has been slaughtered. That was using 90% US arms. In the Carter years, when the Indonesians were actually running out of arms in their attack on this country, Carter actually increased the flow of arms in 1978, which was the worst peak of the slaughter. Carter was backing Somoza and his national guard, openly and with direct military and diplomatic support at a time when they had killed about 40,000 people in the terror of the last days of their regime. Again, that’s a sample. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/9 "2007-06-05T23:40:25Z")
So who’s going to certify Chavez’s next election? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/10 "2007-06-08T12:44:24Z")
Thanks, **Captain Amazing**. I was under the impression the really bad stuff in East Timor and U.S. arms happend with Ford and then it died down under Carter, but it looks like I was wrong. Would that be an actual war crime, though? I was never really clear on this area of foreign policy, of supplying arms to another country who is massacring people. It seems like it _should_ be, but is it? > [@xtisme](#): > > I’m pretty sure that during the 4 years he was in office there had to be at least one covert OP by the CIA somewhere that you could get him on…if you are Chomsky that is. I know. I wouldn’t mind if a CIA trained and armed death squad killed my family and burned my house down. I certainly wouldn’t consider whoever ordered it a war criminal. Chomsky is just a mean old man who probably hates America. The World Court does too, apparently. > [@Magiver](#): > > So who’s going to certify Chavez’s next election? Chavez. 😃 > [@John Mace](#): > > It could also be that Chomsky feels that any president who allowed aid to be given to Israel could be considered a war criminal. Or aid to Egypt or aid to… I haven’t gotten that impression. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/11 "2007-06-08T13:01:35Z")
Carter supported the Shah of Iran for a long time, including a state visit to Tehran IIRC, despite the excesses of SAVAK and the Iranian military. But Chomsky is hardly a dispassionate observer of U.S. foreign policy and presidential leadership. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/12 "2007-06-08T15:10:21Z")
I thought that, surely, someone would alread have said it in this thread. But since anyone has yet to say it, allow me. “Jimmy Carter !?!? He’s history’s greatest monster!” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/13 "2007-06-08T16:30:04Z")
Does Chomsky believe that if we didn’t supply arms to a country they wouldn’t be able to get them somewhere else? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/14 "2007-06-10T10:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] Would that be an actual war crime, though? I was never really clear on this area of foreign policy, of supplying arms to another country who is massacring people. It seems like it _should_ be, but is it? [/QUOTE] I very much doubt it, otherwise you’d see a lot more brouhaha about who supplied what to various regimes. Even breaching a UN arms embargo is no big deal, judging by how often its done by every Tom, Dick or Harry with a few spare guns. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/15 "2007-06-10T11:04:43Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Does Chomsky believe that if we didn’t supply arms to a country they wouldn’t be able to get them somewhere else? [/QUOTE] Is this a justification for supplying arms? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/16 "2007-06-10T13:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Does Chomsky believe that if we didn’t supply arms to a country they wouldn’t be able to get them somewhere else? [/QUOTE] Well, the arms embargo against the non-Serbian former Yugoslav states did do a lot, recently, to show how an arms embargo can really put one side in a conflict at a major disadvantage IMNSHO. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/17 "2007-06-10T15:10:23Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Is this a justification for supplying arms? :smack: [/QUOTE] No, It’s merely saying that Carter isn’t a war criminal because someone used U.S. weapons in a war crime. Is there any international law that says he is? ETA: the arms embargo against Serbia took place in a cold war world. The Indonesians could have bought weapons from China or Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/18 "2007-06-10T16:29:50Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Does Chomsky believe that if we didn’t supply arms to a country they wouldn’t be able to get them somewhere else? [/QUOTE] Well, let’s see here. You own a knife shop. You sell knives to a guy whom you know is a serial killer, who is using those knives to kill his victims. If you didn’t sell him the knives, he could get them somewhere else, sure. But I think a lot of people would blame you for knowingly selling the motherfucker the knives. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-carter-war-criminal/406772/19 "2007-06-13T01:54:12Z")
here is chomksy’s summary of recent indictable presidents [http://www.chomsky.info/talks/1990----.htm](http://www.chomsky.info/talks/1990----.htm)