# Jimmy Dore, War: Trump, Obama, hopeless. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523 "2016-12-01T09:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/21 "2016-12-03T20:34:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, if I were building a pipeline, the last thing I’d do is try to build it through an unstable country in the middle of a fucking civil war. Saudi Arabia does just fine shipping petroleum to Europe via regular channels, why would they make themselves hostages to Syria? > > This is the most retarded conspiracy theory I’ve ever heard, aside from the holographic planes on 9/11 theory. This must be the most retarded opinion ever. Syria wasn’t unstable before the idea of the pipeline. That’s the whole point! Syria was destabilised exactly because they didn’t agree to the pipeline. Neither is the pipeline for petroleum but for gas. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/22 "2016-12-03T20:39:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The US is going to put its ass on the line politically, and get into another ME quagmire, and perhaps a proxy war with Russia, because they give all the fucks about the route of one of the pipes that crisscross the region and wider world. As already stated, the US is in bed with the Saudis. It is they (plus Turkey and Qatar) that want Assad gone. The US is just an ally in this. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/23 "2016-12-03T20:40:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Out of curiousity, why do you think it is worth turning to a comedian on YouTube for expert opinion on world affairs? And why should we listen toyour handwaving? You haven’t brought anything of substance. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/24 "2016-12-03T22:59:26Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > And why should we listen toyour handwaving? You haven’t brought anything of substance. Because I’m an expert in national security affairs who generally fails in his area of expertise, being a mildly popular comedian. He is failing in my area of expertise. It’s like we are twins separated at birth, but nobody’s sure who is the evil one… until it is too late. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/25 "2016-12-03T23:07:10Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > This must be the most retarded opinion ever. > Syria wasn’t unstable before the idea of the pipeline. That’s the whole point! > Syria was destabilised exactly because they didn’t agree to the pipeline. > Neither is the pipeline for petroleum but for gas. > You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. BTW, if you read the lefty cite I provided, it shows that the timeline you are alledging is fabricated. Such as how there was no pipeline for Assad to reject in 2009. And that Kennedy’s sources don’t actually say what he says they do. ---
**Author:** ![Flying\_Rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/858c86/32.png) [@Flying\_Rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/26 "2016-12-04T08:07:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because I’m an expert in national security affairs who generally fails in his area of expertise, being a mildly popular comedian. He is failing in my area of expertise. > > It’s like we are twins separated at birth, but nobody’s sure who is the evil one… until it is too late. :dubious: Ravenman, Jimmy Dore is just discussing a theory written by: > [@](#): > > Robert F. Kennedy Jr. … > “…Kennedy has written two books and several articles on environmental issues. His articles have appeared in publications such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, Atlantic Monthly, Esquire, The Nation, Outside magazine, and The Village Voice…” And, Opposing short article you posted a link to that says "… the US is not fighting over a natural gas pipeline—it is fighting because of its “primordial interest of the US permanent war state” is vague, and makes less sense than the pipeline theory… And the author is: > [@](#): > > Garreth Porter writing for Truthout Now: > "…Porter has regularly reported on political, diplomatic and military developments in the Middle East for Inter Press Service since 2005.[10] His analysis and reporting has appeared in Foreign Affairs,[11]Foreign Policy,[12] The Journal of Environment & Development,[13] Al-Jazeera English,[14] Press TV,[15][16] The Nation,[17] Salon,[18] The Huffington Post,[19] CounterPunch,[20] [Antiwar.com](http://Antiwar.com),[21] and Truthout.[22] So, who has more credentials, Kennedy or Porter? * * * Also, Kennedy’s article is not just about fighting over one pipeline. Its about why Russia is defending Assad, and Assad is defending Russia and their ties as allies. Putin does not want the natural gas pipeline to be built because it will compete with his selling of natural gas and to the EU. and Assad is his ally and supports Putin in keeping that pipeline from happening, in return Assad gets Putins military protection. And US and Nato are against Assad and Putin, because they would be happy to see a competing source of natural gas, which will cause Putin to sell less gas to the EU so Russia will become weaker as a nation. ---
**Author:** ![Flying\_Rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/858c86/32.png) [@Flying\_Rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/27 "2016-12-04T08:42:16Z")
Also, Some of what I am reading currently, in interviews with Noam Chomsky back up What Robert F. Kennedy jr. wrote and what Jimmy Dore expresses: Not specifically about the Pipeline but about Clinton and Obama being no different than Bush… Perpetual war etc… > [@](#): > > AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Obama has dealt with Saudi Arabia any differently than President Bush before him? > NOAM CHOMSKY: Not in any way that I can see, no. Maybe in nuances. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/28 "2016-12-04T13:36:16Z")
Well there’s proof ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/29 "2016-12-04T13:37:52Z")
Noam Chomsky is a brilliant linguist. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/30 "2016-12-05T00:49:19Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > This must be the most retarded opinion ever. > Syria wasn’t unstable before the idea of the pipeline. That’s the whole point! > Syria was destabilised exactly because they didn’t agree to the pipeline. > Neither is the pipeline for petroleum but for gas. > You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. But if we stir up a civil war in Syria, how does our precious pipeline get built? Did we figure we’d be greeted as liberators, we’d mop up Assad and his crew, and get the pipeline built by Christmas? The whole point of this gas pipeline was to destabilize the Russkis, yes? Undercutting their gas sales to Europe. So this pipeline has to actually get built to do that. So how soon was Assad supposed to get replaced by a stable and western-friendly government, that could guarantee the safety of this supposed pipeline, and not demand too much bribe money? Why not just give Assad more bribe money? Or send the goddam pipeline through some other route. It’s not like there’s one and only one way to get gas from Qatar to market, and it’s so important that if Assad won’t agree we have to have him killed, because Western Civilization and Haliburton is at stake. This falls into the trope common to both left-wing and right-wing cranks, that everything that happens in the world happens because of the United States, either things we did that we shouldn’t have done, or because of the things we didn’t do that we should have done. War breaks out in Ukraine? It’s because the United States was stirring up trouble. Instability in the Caucasus? It’s because we weren’t tough enough. Bus goes over a cliff in Bolivia? Where was the United States? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/31 "2016-12-05T01:59:52Z")
The gas pipe isn’t even the most fun Syria CT, though it is quite popular. Some others: 1. The West attacks countries with an independent bank. 2. ISIS is a Saudi/Israeli/American proxy army whose presence is justification to go after its enemies, as in [this political cartoon.](http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Politics_5568b5_5447876.jpg) 3. Syria threatened the petrodollar (this was a leftover CT from Iraq). 4. America created a migration crisis to destroy European welfare states to dampen populist movements at home. ---
**Author:** ![Flying\_Rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/858c86/32.png) [@Flying\_Rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/32 "2016-12-05T09:30:42Z")
Marshmallow, Lemur866, Robert F Kennedy jr. has written articles for the The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times. Accusing him of being on par with a right wing conspiracy wingnut like Alex Jones is very trollish. Most of what you wrote does not express the views or information in Kennedy’s original article. I don’t think you watched the Video, or read the original article. So you are calling something you didn’t read and know nothing about— a conspiracy theory. Are you posting your thoughts, based on fragments you read, on the fake news versions published by Breitbart of Kennedy’s article, not the original? I think you are. So, If you want to post at least read the original article. Otherwise you are being Trolls. See the comment below by someone who does not agree with Kennedy? See how he is not acting like a Troll and is being intelligent and insightful? That is the kind of thing I expect on Straight Dope forum. > [@](#): > > Tom Buczkowski, Politically diverse due to thinking > Written Apr 20 > > The events to which Mr. Kennedy refers are real but, in my opinion, he ignores the broader context of US vital national interests during the Cold War, or at least what they were perceived to be at the time, and perhaps overstates the conspiratorial nature of the events. Safe for Democracy, by John Prados, is a decent source but I do not think very highly of Legacy of Ashes, by Tim Weiner, as his conclusions seem to leap far beyond the facts. > > In the context of Cold War thinking, the US did some stupid shit in the Middle East, just as it did in South America, but the more important question is: “How should the US proceed in Syria today?” > > As far as that I agree that US foreign policy toward Syria is misdirected. Russia was the successor of the relationship that Syria had with the Soviet Union, which had a strong presence there since the 1960s. They have significant financial investments in the country and are anxious to keep those secure. US opposition to al-Assad is based on shaky ground, as there is no reason to believe that any of the alternative groups will improve the country or do better at human rights. It is not a matter of “good guys” vs “bad guys” but simply “these guys” vs “those guys.” Let Russia and al Assad’s regime attack ISIS from the west, and the US can focus on mobilizing the Iraqi army and hit them from the east. Both sides want ISIS contained. It’s a time for cooperation, not a territorial pissing match. > > Russia is struggling to maintain influence and economic control even at its own borders. Allowing them to support al Assad’s power in Syria, where they have been for decades, is not a high price to pay for containing ISIS. After all, regime change didn’t go too well in Iraq, did it? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/33 "2016-12-05T10:56:41Z")
Firstly I don’t think it’s good form here to accuse others of being trolls. Secondly the objections have been based on the content of Kennedy’s hypothesis and how it doesn’t fit with the actual timeline of events. It’s not enough to repeat Kennedy’s credentials, what about the valid points being raised? Finally, I’m having trouble keeping up with this CT. When I pointed out how implausible it is that the US gives a crap about this pipeline, you said it was just about supporting Saudi Arabia et al. But Saudi Arabia themselves have said they do not want this pipeline, so what are the supposed motivations again? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/34 "2016-12-05T14:01:46Z")
> [@Flying\_Rabbit](#): > > Robert F Kennedy jr. has written articles for the The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times. . . . > See the comment below by someone who does not agree with Kennedy? See how he is not acting like a Troll and is being intelligent and insightful? It is very interesting to me that you seem to be reading a lot of foreign policy analysis from people who have no experience in foreign policy. I tried googling “Tom Buczkowski” and almost nothing came up, except a guy who says he’s an autodidact who is obsessively retired, or something like that. Do you read anything from people who are actually respected foreign policy analysts and commentators? Like Thomas Friedman, for example? [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/opinion/friedman-wikileaks-drought-and-syria.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/opinion/friedman-wikileaks-drought-and-syria.html) Here, among a discussion of the importance of climate change as a foreign policy issue, he links the discontent that gave rise to the Arab Spring to the drought that Syria had experienced (along with Assad’s incompetence in addressing the crisis). This is about a billion times more reasonable – that many Syrians rose up against an incompetent and corrupt government as Arabs in many other countries were doing the same – than claiming an American conspiracy over natural gas that nobody except foreign policy dilettantes have heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/35 "2016-12-05T14:38:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Noam Chomsky is a brilliant linguist. He’s often very insightful on political issues as well. I’m not seeing why his opinion that [the Obama administration’s fundamental policy on Saudi Arabia hasn’t been significantly different from the Bush administration’s](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/saudi-arabia-911-bill-congress/478689/) would be considered unreasonable. > [@](#): > > While American officials have expressed ambivalence about the Saudi government before, noting the kingdom’s dismal record on human rights and involvement in exporting radical Islamism, there’s a new drumbeat of questions about the value of the relationship. […] But the U.S. still relies on the Saudi government for plenty of things, notably funneling support to Syrian rebels who oppose the Assad regime. […] > > […] the president complained to Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull about Saudi and Gulf influence producing stricter forms in Islam in places like Indonesia, where practice had been more liberal. > > “Aren’t the Saudis your friends?,” Turnbull wondered, to which Obama replied: “It’s complicated.” [Indeed:](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/23/politics/september-11-bill-saudi-arabia-veto/) > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama vetoed a bill Friday [Sept 2016] that would allow family members of 9/11 victims to sue Saudi Arabia, pitting him against Congress and both presidential candidates on an emotionally charged matter. […] > > The lobbying effort on Capitol Hill against the legislation has involved the administration but also representatives for the Saudi government, which denies any involvement in the 9/11 terror attacks. The alliance puts Obama in the unlikely position of defending the same position as the Kingdom, with which he’s had longstanding disputes over counterterrorism strategies and human rights. In other words, US-Saudi relations under Obama are strained by surface disagreements (what Chomsky calls “nuances”) but essentially unchanged as far as the pragmatic obligations and expectations of the political alliance are concerned. So, sounds like Chomsky pretty much called it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/36 "2016-12-05T14:59:47Z")
It would be helpful to name several countries in which US foreign policy towards them has fundamentally changed under a new President. I contend that, with a few exceptions, American policies towards most countries do not undergo serious changes when new presidents come in. The exceptions I would note would be things like Nixon goes to China, Obama negotiates with Iran on nuclear issues, and maybe a few others. Chomsky saying that US policy towards any country has only changed in nuances is a statement that may sound shocking, but is utterly unprofound. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/37 "2016-12-05T15:18:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > He’s often very insightful on political issues as well. I’m not seeing why his opinion that [the Obama administration’s fundamental policy on Saudi Arabia hasn’t been significantly different from the Bush administration’s](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/saudi-arabia-911-bill-congress/478689/) would be considered unreasonable. > . You could say the same about the United States’ relationship with the UK, with Brazil, or with Japan. It’s true, but it’s no great insight. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/38 "2016-12-05T15:42:52Z")
I’ll give Dore a point for making me aware of a Trump nickname I’d not heard: Donny tiny hands. > [@Alessan](#): > > Noam Chomsky is a brilliant linguist. Meh. I’m a cunning linguist! [rimshot] ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/39 "2016-12-05T15:47:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You could say the same about the United States’ relationship with the UK, with Brazil, or with Japan. It’s true, but it’s no great insight. Nobody said that Chomsky’s observation about the US-Saudi relationship was a great insight; I merely pointed out that it wasn’t unreasonable or inaccurate. Glad to find that you agree with me. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to reflexively sneer at Chomsky’s political views whenever they encounter his name, and only after looking at what he actually says in more detail and comparing it with the factual record do they realize that they don’t actually disagree with his statement. Luckily, we don’t know anyone like that around these parts. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523/40 "2016-12-05T15:50:13Z")
Pfft. I’ve said that English uses the Subject-Verb-Object construction and nobody cites me on linguistic matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jimmy-dore-war-trump-obama-hopeless/773523.md?page=3)