# Job Hunting Bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632 "2009-01-16T18:53:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckler_of_Swashing)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/61 "2009-01-19T00:44:27Z")
**Martini Enfield** - I would pay to be in your entourage just to see that - 🆒 . ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/62 "2009-01-19T05:50:16Z")
I was just looking at the help wanted ads a few hours ago, and what’s really ticking me off is the ‘company anonymous’ ads that offer huge salaries for relatively unskilled positions, such as $17-$23/hr for a medical receptionist with 0-1 years of experience and $43-48k for an accounts payable clerk with 0-1 years’ experience. No way in this area in this job climate is any legit employer offering that kind of money for those jobs, and yet they’re published in the local newspaper classifieds (powered by Indeed!). AND the work-at-home crap that targets clerical and customer service jobseekers, also now showing up on the newspaper’s site. I used to be able to count on this newspaper’s site (2nd largest city in Indiana so it had a lot of ads) for legitimate openings and now it’s full of crap just like the other job sites. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/63 "2009-01-19T06:27:13Z")
Well, I had a good interview on Wednesday for a Management position that would be perfect for me, working with a well-known company looking for skills that I not only had, but had awards for doing well from previous jobs, and had to travel some distance to get to the interview. As in, a long way. By train. Which costs a fortune. But I went, because I need a job and the phone interview went really well, and they seemed very keen on getting me in for the interview and mentioned the skills I had that matched up with what they were after. The interview went for an hour- I’ve never had a job interview that lasted that long- and one of the interviewers pretty much wanted to hire me on the spot, but the Area Manager just seemed vaguely annoyed that I’d even shown up- for an interview that she had arranged and had been most insistent I prepare myself for (which I had). But she thawed out pretty quickly and the whole thing went very well, I thought. Basically, the HR Manager wanted to hire me on the spot at the end of the interview (I saw her notes upside down, which were very positive) but the Area Manager didn’t seem as sure and said they’d be in touch Monday. They didn’t call my references on Thursday or Friday and today I got the “Sorry, but No” call from the Area Manager. So I asked her if she had any tips for future interviews and she said “Oh no, your interview was fine, your CV was fine, it’s just that we don’t think you’re going to fit in with our culture”. So I said thank you for calling me back (which no-one does anymore) and to let me know if any more vacancies became available. But after I rang off, I was thinking “Look, if you knew I wasn’t going to be a good fit with your company’s culture, you’d obviously decided that by Friday, and could have called me then, instead of leaving me sweating it out over the weekend- I really, really wanted and needed this job, and you knew that.” I’m not mad about it- if I’m not right for them I’m not right for them, and at least they called back- but damn I hate getting mixed signals in interviews. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/64 "2009-01-19T08:33:09Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Unfortunately, theway they do is grossly time-consuming and ultimately pointless. Sure, it looks good from your end, but from our end, we’re having to get another username and password every time, go through an annoying uploading process, and then write in numerous useless bits of information. Smarter companies actually pull the releveant fields from your uploaded resume and then have you correct them. I also do data mining work, and even in our company, no one can be consistent in filling out the product name for a field repair report. I do feel your pain, but I’m afraid that in return for you being able to post to lots of job sites, companies need to simplify the mining process. BTW, [here](http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/newsletter/OE20030617.htm) is a somewhat old newsletter from Nick at Ask the Headhunter, whose advice is usually pretty good - and is not to always use a headhunter. I haven’t seen any data indicating the numbers are any better today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/65 "2009-01-19T08:38:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I ave had to look for a job several times in the last 12 years. I followed all the crap written in “WHAT COLOR IS YOURPARACHUTE” for years, and I NEVER got a job through networking. Networking WORKS if you are in a speailized field, and have lots of friends doing the same thing. For me, it was a total waste of time. More importantly, your contasts get tired of all the calls they get. > I’m hoping to start a business in the next 24 months-then I can say oodby to the whole mess. > Oh, by the way, don’t waste your time with any “job search” firms, they do NOTHING and charge a fortune. You mean, it can never happen that a friend working in a company tells you about an opening? That’s networking. Though I work in a specialized field, I got a job for someone who networked with me. We were on a standards committee together, and he was looking for a job. He sent his resume, which turned out to be a perfect match for a job that another manager had asked me to help define. I made the introductions, and he got the job. Consider if you were a manager. Given equal qualifications, would you favor someone recommended by someone in your company, or a total stranger? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/66 "2009-01-19T08:47:59Z")
Well, seems to me that the higher the unemployment rate goes, the less useful networking is, since more of your friends are likely to be unemployed. Worse, they may even be going for the same jobs as you, so why would they tell you about ones they know about? I too have never gotten a job through networking. I have a lot of friends and old coworkers in the industries I like, and I’ve gotten exactly nowhere with any of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/67 "2009-01-19T08:55:39Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I too have never gotten a job through networking. I have a lot of friends and old coworkers in the industries I like, and I’ve gotten exactly nowhere with any of 'em. I know Government jobs here are set up specifically so you _can’t_ get a job by networking. You have to apply- along with everyone else- and (presumably) the best candidate gets the job. I discovered today it’s not unusual for 50 people to apply for a single Government position. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/68 "2009-01-19T09:23:40Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > i have communicated with people at monsanto in my current job, i _know_ they have a corporate email, not a frelling yahoo address… Well, yeah. The silly thing is, it really wouldn’t take much effort to spoof a Monsanto email address and put one’s Yahoo account in the reply-to field; most people aren’t diligent enough to figure it out. > [@Charger](#): > > \*Figuratively, so shut up. Hey, I hear that pays well in some countries. > [@Projammer](#): > > For instance, 5 years Java experience when Java was only 2 years old. They probably just wanted you to be [James Gosling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gosling). > [@vivalostwages](#): > > No kidding. According to the “results” I’ve been getting, I’m qualified to work everywhere from an aircraft hangar to an auto mechanic shop to a private school to the U.S. Freakin’ Navy. To be fair, _everyone_ is qualified to work for the U.S. Navy, as long as they’re an able-bodied, heterosexual, cisgendered U.S. citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/69 "2009-01-19T10:50:44Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > **Asking for the sun, the moon and the stars in the description of the opening.** Christ, is there anyone who’s well-versed in the 101 assorted skills they ask for? Once my husband got a position which had asked for his foreknowledge of several kinds of programs, and he went in letting them know that though he didn’t know them, he had the ability to learn new applications quickly (true). He nervously awaited having to learn them on the fly, and it turned out he didn’t have to really know dick-all beyond one or two main applications. After that, I’ve never believed half the requirements they post. I once saw one in the newspaper that I should have clipped and framed. It was for a firm in Catalonia, a bilingual area. WANTED: Superior Engineer (full degree) [that means minimal age 25 and that’s if you’re God. If you’re God, the teachers will grab you, chain you to a chair bolted to the floor and not let you go until you sign your PhD-admittance request. In blood] English, French and German spoken at native level [did I mention bilingual area? Yes I did. OK, so you want someone who speaks five languages; I mean, your ad is in the minority language, so you want someone who speaks it. Right] With a Master’s, preferably in Marketing [ah, not any Master’s but an MBA, which he’s supposed to have obtained when? If he’s gotten a Superior in 7 years, he’s been studying his ass off and not had time for anything else] Below age 25 [see the first line :smack:] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/70 "2009-01-19T11:49:46Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I know Government jobs here are set up specifically so you _can’t_ get a job by networking. You have to apply- along with everyone else- and (presumably) the best candidate gets the job. I discovered today it’s not unusual for 50 people to apply for a single Government position. :eek: On the other hand Virgin Blue used to have a system where you got “stars” for having recommendations from within the airline. The more stars you had the better your chances of getting an interview. I have to admit I turned up to a “lots of pay no work” type job to be given a lecture on selling and motivation followed by walking local businesses selling crappy calculators. Needless to say, I walked home halfway through. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/71 "2009-01-19T12:09:58Z")
> [@scout1222](#): > > In my limited experience, the listings from companies who won’t provide their names are really listed by recruiters. Which is another kind of annoying thing. You think you’re applying to a company, and it turns out the person who calls you is from a placement agency. > > In the end, it has worked out for me, and hey, I’m getting a call back, but I just don’t get why they don’t say that it’s a posting from a recruiter. The system that ended up morphing onto what is now Monster (can’t recall what it was named) had a no 3rd party recruiter posting rule. Note: this did not apply to temp agencies that were actual employers. At least it required the place putting up the posting to be the actual employer. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/72 "2009-01-19T13:26:30Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > WANTED: > Superior Engineer (full degree) > English, French and German spoken at native level [did I mention bilingual area? Yes I did. OK, so you want someone who speaks five languages;] > With a Master’s, preferably in Marketing [ah, not any Master’s but an MBA, which he’s supposed to have obtained when? If he’s gotten a Superior in 7 years, he’s been studying his ass off and not had time for anything else] > Below age 25 [see the first line :smack:] I remember having seen something similar, long ago when my then girlfriend was searching for a job. Some years of experience were required too. We did the maths, and fitting the requirements implied the applicant would have joined college at 14. ---
**Author:** ![scout1222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@scout1222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scout1222)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/73 "2009-01-19T17:01:59Z")
Interesting, **flickster**. Boy, how times have changed! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/74 "2009-01-19T18:11:45Z")
There are more people after jobs than there are jobs. The employers can demand whatever they want and they have a good chance to get it. The standards may be too high for the position but they will likely get someone to fill it. When there was close to full employment they were not so demanding and were a hell of a lot more polite. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/75 "2009-01-19T18:47:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I once saw one in the newspaper that I should have clipped and framed. It was for a firm in Catalonia, a bilingual area. > > WANTED: > Superior Engineer (full degree) [that means minimal age 25 and that’s if you’re God. If you’re God, the teachers will grab you, chain you to a chair bolted to the floor and not let you go until you sign your PhD-admittance request. In blood] > English, French and German spoken at native level [did I mention bilingual area? Yes I did. OK, so you want someone who speaks five languages; I mean, your ad is in the minority language, so you want someone who speaks it. Right] > With a Master’s, preferably in Marketing [ah, not any Master’s but an MBA, which he’s supposed to have obtained when? If he’s gotten a Superior in 7 years, he’s been studying his ass off and not had time for anything else] > Below age 25 [see the first line :smack:] If I saw something like this in the United States, I’d assume that the employer was going for labor certification. If you want to hire someone from another country, and get them a green card so they can work in the US, you have to deal with two agencies. You start the process through the INS (now part of DHS), and those guys require you go to the Department of Labor to get your labor certification. This entails submitting a job description to the DOL, and “attempting” to find a US citizen who will fit that job description. Once the DOL is satisfied that no US citizen fits it, it’ll give you your certification that you can bring back to INS. Drawing up those job descriptions is tricky – if it’s too specific, the DOL will reject it, but if it’s too general, you’ll get US citizen applicants. This is an immigration lawyer’s bread and butter. A good lawyer will describe the job requirements such that they sound fairly reasonable, but no one except your foreign employee would ever fit them. A lot of these ridiculous job descriptions (“ten years programming experience, fluent in German, Chinese, and Afrikaans”) fit a particular green card applicant to a tee. The job posting is just for the benefit of the Department of Labor – the employer is hoping that no one responds to the ad. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/76 "2009-01-19T19:03:15Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > If I saw something like this in the United States, I’d assume that the employer was going for labor certification. > > If you want to hire someone from another country, and get them a green card so they can work in the US, you have to deal with two agencies. You start the process through the INS (now part of DHS), and those guys require you go to the Department of Labor to get your labor certification. This entails submitting a job description to the DOL, and “attempting” to find a US citizen who will fit that job description. Once the DOL is satisfied that no US citizen fits it, it’ll give you your certification that you can bring back to INS. > > Drawing up those job descriptions is tricky – if it’s too specific, the DOL will reject it, but if it’s too general, you’ll get US citizen applicants. This is an immigration lawyer’s bread and butter. A good lawyer will describe the job requirements such that they sound fairly reasonable, but no one except your foreign employee would ever fit them. A lot of these ridiculous job descriptions (“ten years programming experience, fluent in German, Chinese, and Afrikaans”) fit a particular green card applicant to a tee. The job posting is just for the benefit of the Department of Labor – the employer is hoping that no one responds to the ad. Generally true, but if you include requirements that are not normal for the profession (like your German, Chinese, and Afrikaans-speaking engineer example above), you’d damn well better be able to document that those skills are actually required on a regular basis in that position, or you are going to get a nasty audit letter, and a denial if you can’t respond in a satisfactory manner to the audit letter. I once had to work on an audit response for a case in which the Dept. of Labor wouldn’t believe that a position for which the primary duties included negotiating commercial real estate deals valued at hundreds of millions of dollars, _in Latin America,_ with non-English-speaking Latin Americans, required fluency in Spanish. After we submitted two binders filled with about a foot-thick stack of correspondence, legal contracts, deal books, etc. in Spaish, and waiting more than a year for someone to actually review the damn audit response, the Dept. of Labor finally agreed. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/77 "2009-01-19T19:19:26Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Not any more. I contacted several of them in central florida, and very few companies are paying any more. :rolleyes: They’ve taken to charging the applicants for most positions. the usual fee in my area is 2000.00 upon accepting a position they find for you. … The fuck! :eek: I don’t deal with recruitment agencies anymore - first they want to know how I dress (decent but no suits) and then they get upset if I tell them I won’t accept anything less than perfectly normal market rates. Look guy, I can get enough well-paying projects on my own terms - if you don’t make it worth it for me, I don’t need you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/78 "2009-01-20T02:56:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Well, seems to me that the higher the unemployment rate goes, the less useful networking is, since more of your friends are likely to be unemployed. Worse, they may even be going for the same jobs as you, so why would they tell you about ones they know about? > > I too have never gotten a job through networking. I have a lot of friends and old coworkers in the industries I like, and I’ve gotten exactly nowhere with any of 'em. These days nothing is going to make it easy. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use every single avenue. But most hiring managers are going to go with a recommendation long before going with a person from a site. I hated sifting through 50 resumes. I’ve had 3 jobs. The first I got from a conference that was partially dedicated to matching new Ph.Ds with openings. The second came from a headhunter, but both I and a guy who worked for me did a talk at this company, and we both wound up working there. The third came from my neighbor, who was good friend with an HR exec. All of this was before there were job sites, but networking does work. Not always, but nothing always works. And I can certainly understand why it might not work for government jobs - except you might be able to find out what kind of stuff is available. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/79 "2009-01-20T03:43:40Z")
> [@Freejooky](#): > > The latest one to make me see red and actually get up from the computer for a breather is “Compensation: Your current salary.” Probably cuts down on applications from the unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632/80 "2009-01-20T03:54:33Z")
Comment on networking: I’ve known at least a couple of people who lived to network. They were always “out there” searching for a better job, even as soon as they’d gotten a new one, and networking was their god. They’d schmooze with you and keep in touch and seem to be your friend, but eventually if it became clear that you could probably never help them get a job, they’d cut you loose. If you’re intent on networking, then fine, but don’t pretend to be someone’s bosom buddy just because you think they can benefit you in the future. That’s kind of icky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-hunting-bullshit/481632.md?page=5)