# Job skills training in public schools
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 15, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181 "2014-07-15T17:10:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/21 "2014-07-17T03:45:34Z")
> [@FBJJ](#):
>
> And come out of college 100,000 in debt
Compared to a life time of increased earning potential that is peanuts.
What would you ballpark a person needs to make in addition per hour post 25 years of age till retirement at 65 to make college worth while?
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### Author:  [@FBJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FBJJ)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/22 "2014-07-17T03:49:24Z")
> [@Sitnam](#):
>
> Compared to a life time of increased earning potential that is peanuts.
>
> What would you ballpark a person needs to make in addition per hour post 25 years of age till retirement at 65 to make college worth while?
better just to get a a high school diploma and get a $60.000 with the local government and have NO DEBT
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/23 "2014-07-17T04:19:57Z")
> [@FBJJ](#):
>
> And come out of college 100,000 in debt
Which rarely happens. 30% have no debt, and the rest average at a piddling $30k.
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### Author:  [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/24 "2014-07-17T08:33:51Z")
Well, swell. Judging from the responses to this thread, the answer to “should public schools have more job training,” the answer is, “no, because everyone should just go university and get a four year degree.” Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about where people talk about one trillion dollars in student debt, skill gaps in trades, the aging skill labor pool in the US, and mediocre performance by US students in an expensive system. I misunderstood the situation entirely. Everything’s hunky-dory over there and nothing needs changing. Glad to hear. 🙂
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/25 "2014-07-17T10:30:16Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#):
>
> Well, swell. Judging from the responses to this thread, the answer to “should public schools have more job training,” the answer is, “no, because everyone should just go university and get a four year degree.” Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about where people talk about one trillion dollars in student debt, skill gaps in trades, the aging skill labor pool in the US, and mediocre performance by US students in an expensive system. I misunderstood the situation entirely. Everything’s hunky-dory over there and nothing needs changing. Glad to hear. 🙂
That’s kind of true. With more than seven payback plans (two of which offer income based payments and eventual forgiveness) student loan debt is more of an annoyance than a deal breaker. US public schools are entirely average for developed countries, and our universities continue to be, without question, the best in the world. I’m not an expert in the skills gap in trades, but I do know that the market tends to fill those sorts of things fairly quickly, and of course nothing about a college degree precludes one from a trade.
But “things are generally okay” makes for poor scare headlines, which is why you instead get an endless parade of crisis.
If there is a scandal to be had, it’s predatory for-profits colleges. But we are quickly working to regulate those.
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### Author:  [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)
#### Post date: [July 18, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/26 "2014-07-18T02:25:04Z")
The old US medical system worked just fine for middle class and better Americans, too. I wonder why they changed that?
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [July 18, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/27 "2014-07-18T10:30:21Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#):
>
> The old US medical system worked just fine for middle class and better Americans, too. I wonder why they changed that?
The difference is that to fix the education, you really have to fix the poverty. The success of any education system is primarily a function of parent involvement, health and nutrition, and access to books and extracurricular activities.
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### Author:  [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)
#### Post date: [July 18, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/28 "2014-07-18T13:34:49Z")
Cite, please.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [July 18, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/29 "2014-07-18T16:37:47Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#):
>
> Cite, please.
> **[Education and Socioeconomic Status Factsheet](https://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/education)**
>
> The impact of socioeconomic status on educational outcomes and reducing slow academic skills development, low literacy, chronic stress and increased dropout rates.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/30 "2014-07-19T12:01:46Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#):
>
> I’ve mentioned this idea on the SMDB before, but one idea is to split the traditional college “liberal arts” education from job training. The trend over the past few decades has been to “collegeize” what were once jobs that were learned in trade schools or apprenticeships. E.g. nowadays every 2 year college worth it’s salt has an Associate’s Degree in Auto Mechanics, Associate’s Degree in Carpentry Technology, where you also have to take history, literature, etc… It’s harder and harder to get an apprenticeship and learn on the job, or even “just” go to trade school - you “need a degree” nowadays. Why? This has happened before - 200 years ago people could become lawyers by apprenticeship without having to take literature or world history courses.
>
> Maybe that’s the wrong way - maybe we should be making more job training programs that allow one to (hopefully temporarily) bypass a liberal arts education. E.g. build programs allowing someone to apprentice as an electrical engineer, learning enough math, physics, and chemistry to master the EE material but skipping literature and composition requirements beyond basic literacy requirements.
In several European countries what we have is “trades high schools”; whether getting your Electrician, Administrative Assistant or HVAC degree at 17 works better than getting it at 20, I can’t tell, but the training they get is completely job-oriented (the most esoteric stuff they get is things like “basic accounting”, which anybody should know whether self-employed or not). I’ve also seen “apprenticeship schools” directed towards older people, getting them those same degrees as a way to help them after prison, divorce, or simply after getting their heads out of their asses at an age when being in class with 14yos would be strange.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/job-skills-training-in-public-schools/693181/31 "2014-07-19T14:56:05Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#):
>
> IMO, there should be a split during the last three years of high school between academic and vocational. The US puts too much emphasis on academics in high school, leaving vocational education to private institutions and community colleges.
The vast majority of high schools already offer a vocational track and millions of kids already participate in it. Could we push it more? Sure. But this is a “problem” that was solved decades ago.
> **[CTE in Your State - State Profiles and Comparisons - Advance CTE](https://careertech.org/our-vision/cte-in-your-state/)**
>
> CTE in every state and territory helps meet the country’s challenges of economic development, student achievement and global competitiveness.
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