# Jobs Americans won't do? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812 "2004-12-20T16:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/41 "2004-12-20T22:30:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It’s really circular reasoning. There are jobs that “Americans won’t do” beacuse there are a bunch of illegal immigrants here who will do the work for less than what most native born folks here would. If the illegals were gone, wages would have to rise, or the agricultural jobs would flow to Mexico (where the cheap labor was). These jobs aren’t necessarily sub-minimum wage, either. It’s just back breaking work… Good observation. Probably Bush is less concerned with getting immigrants to do the jobs we don’t want to do than with providing a steady supply of cheap labor for employers. As for Americans “not wanting these jobs”, or “refusing to do these jobs”, it’s only human nature. Would you rather earn 50K annually working in an office, or work on hillsides doing brush clearance in Southern California in advance of fire season? What we will do, when it becomes a matter of survival, is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/42 "2004-12-20T22:57:09Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Representatives are from the House of Representatives, and there are 435 of them. > > Representatives sit for two-year terms with no term limits, and all Representatives are up for election at the same time. \*\*. That is, the U.S. Constitution doesn’t specify term limits, as it does for the president, but some states, IIRC, have voted in term limits for their own senators and congress representatives in Washington. This comes from the belief, apparently peculiar to some Americans, that a career in politics is bad, and politicians must therefore be forced out of public life before they become too influential or entrenched. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/43 "2004-12-20T23:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=EonweYou raise an interesting question though, which is maybe better answered in great debates than here: where does responsibility lie as far as responsible wages etc etc? Is it the responsibility of the consumer to choose the more expensive product in order to drive business owners to provide those ‘benefits’, or is it the responsibility of the business owner to provide a certain level (what that level is is certainly debatable as well) of ‘benefit’ to his or her employees initially, ignoring the bottom line in that respect?[/QUOTE] Businesses always look to minimize labor costs. Is there any industry that pays its workers more than what the business owners think they need to pay them? Consumers have shown they will, in certain circumstances, pay more for the same item. Organically grown produce gets a higher price, for example. In that instance, though, there is an added value (real or perceived) to the consumer. Businesses are responsible inasmuch as they purposely use illegal aliens in order to push down wages. So, yes, in this case there is an added complexity and business owners bear that responsibility… On the other hand, where I live (in CA) there’s almost no way of telling whether someone is here legally from Mexico or illegally. We haven’t so far been willing, as a society, to do what is necessary to keep illegal aliens out. It’s either too expensive or the police tactics necesary would be too distatesful. It’s hard for me to blame the growers for hiring illegals, except in those cases where they do so purposely, and how are we supposed to know when that is happening? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/44 "2004-12-20T23:23:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s not usually liberals who support the criminalization of illegal immigrants. Nor are liberals generally anti-immigration. > … Left wingers have typically advocated gentle treatment of illegal aliens; an ethos that grows out the long tradition of fostering civil rights. What we’re now seeing, however, is that many right-wingers are also in favor of high immigration levels because of the cheap labor pool they provide. So we have an unusual fusion of interest here between liberals and conservatives, and the larger issue of immigration generally, how much is good for the country in the long run and whether we should reduce the numbers, is seldom discussed. All developed countries, and probably most others, have restrictions on immigration; for instance, it’s virtually impossible for an American to emigrate to the EU absent either funds to live on for years, or an incredibly high demand skill which _no_ Europeans are willing or able to do, or the happy chance of falling in love and marrying a European. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/45 "2004-12-21T00:09:55Z")
It’s more complex than that, **SofP**. Many liberals, typically from union-heavy rustbelt areas, are hostile to illegal immigrants and want to reduce (though not stop) legal immigration for obvious wage-related reasons. It’s hard not to notice the skin-color and cultural differences between new immigrants and the sons of former immigrants these politicians claim to be protecting and not suspect there may be darker motives, but most often there are not. On the right, many conservatives are as interested or more interested in offering the promise of America to more immigrants not so much for the short-term wage impacts as for the long-term benefits of a continual stream of new ideas into our culture. There’s no shortage of great American companies founded by first or second-generation immigrants, and many a conservative will counter arguments about immigrants taking “American” jobs at low pay by asking how many high-paying American jobs owe their existence to people like Andrew Grove or Charles Wang. Immigrant waves tend to be entrepreneurial (there are more than 1 MM hispanic-owned businesses in the US, mostly small firms). To a lot of us, immigration is the engine of the American dream. Immigration is one of those issues that eludes the traditional left-right cleavage of so many other issues in politics. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/46 "2004-12-21T00:11:06Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Left wingers have typically advocated gentle treatment of illegal aliens; an ethos that grows out the long tradition of fostering civil rights. What we’re now seeing, however, is that many right-wingers are also in favor of high immigration levels because of the cheap labor pool they provide. So we have an unusual fusion of interest here between liberals and conservatives… In other words: just because Republicans and Democrats can finally agree on something doesn’t mean we should do it; in fact, the party that isn’t in control when the situation arises should bitch and moan that the other people are doing something right, but for the wrong reasons? Why does the motivation matter? People have finally come around to the fact that immigration can be mutually beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/47 "2004-12-21T00:16:13Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > I just don’t get all of you “compassionate liberals.” Let’s face it, there are a lot of Latin Americans living in abject poverty in their home countries, and if they decide that they want to make the trek north the seek out a better life, I say let 'em. _Translation:_ “If these folks _want_ me to treat them like serfs, why shouldn’t I be allowed to do so?” Must be more of those “moral values” we keep hearing about… ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/48 "2004-12-21T00:18:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It’s hard for me to blame the growers for hiring illegals, except in those cases where they do so purposely, and how are we supposed to know when that is happening? Perhaps we could have a law enforcement campaign that would involve checking the [I-9](http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-9.htm) compliance of companies in industries known to hire lots of illegals? ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/49 "2004-12-21T00:52:33Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > That is, the U.S. Constitution doesn’t specify term limits, as it does for the president, but some states, IIRC, have voted in term limits for their own senators and congress representatives in Washington. The Supreme Court has held that these state laws are unconstitutional: [_U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton_](http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/93-1456.ZS.html), 514 U.S. 779 (1995). Now, back to the main point: on immigration. I don’t think it’s an understatement to say that Bush’s proposal is wildly unpopular with many conservatives - although that’s not the impression you’d get from the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, which likes free (and cheap) labor movement. A taste of the debate can be found in the Hudson Insitute’s [review](http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=2983) of Victor Davis Hanson’s _Mexifornia_. **Metacom** , one of the nastier side disputes is over I-9 enforcement. Restrictionists argue that current Federal policy makes that effort almost impossible. My suspicion is that true enforcement would require an extremely strong stomach - we’d have to be willing to watch millions of forcible deportations, with attendant family breakups, etc. Personally, I would be willing to swallow hard and support that in the name of national security, but it would be a very difficult experience, and one that would not win the country any friends - so I’m not exactly expecting it to happen anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/50 "2004-12-21T00:58:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > [Tom Lehrer] > Should Americans pick crops, George says no > 'cause only a Mexican would stoop so low > And after all, even the Pharohs > had to import Hebrew brasseros > [/TL] > > Of course Lehrer was singing about George Murphy but the name coincidence is eerie. Or for a modern view [Stephen Lynch] If I could be a superhero I’d be Immigration dude I’d send all the foreigners back to their homes For eating up all of our food **And taking our welfare and best jobs to boot Like landscaping, dishwashing, picking our fruit** I’d pass a lot of laws to get rid of their food ‘Cause I’d be Immigration Dude [/Stephen Lynch] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/51 "2004-12-21T01:18:57Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Perhaps we could have a law enforcement campaign that would involve checking the [I-9](http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-9.htm) compliance of companies in industries known to hire lots of illegals? I have no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/52 "2004-12-21T01:26:58Z")
I am truly of two minds (possibly three) on the issue of immigration. I understand people wanting to come here and earn a better living than they can at home. I worked with a busboy who made more money here cleaning tables than his wife did in Mexico, who was a pediatrician. He lived in a cheap little apartment with three other guys who also bussed tables, and all of them send the bulk of their money home to Mexico. I also understand that American workers are used to a certain standard in pay and benefits, and that employers would rather pay less if they can. And we’d also like for things to be affordable; when employers are paying less for labor they can charge less for services/products. AND - a lot of things are pretty expensive as it is! And I know a LOT of Americans who definitely feel a sense of entitlement as far as jobs go. I find particularly in wealthy suburban areas that teenagers don’t HAVE to have jobs, so they simply don’t - go into a restaurant or factory in those areas and almost all you’ll find is immigrant workers, whereas in the less-affluent areas kids get jobs at McDonald’s, the malls and local restaurants. So on the one hand, this is the Land of Opportunity, and it should be for this generation of immigrants just as it was for the last generation. But I think as long as we can get away with hiring immigrants to work for less and as long as kids don’t HAVE to work, things will probably continue as they are, with people on both sides getting upset. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/53 "2004-12-21T02:28:15Z")
As long as there is economic inequity (which is to say, forever) there will be illegal immigration. The US, as mentioned, is not the only country having this experience and struggling with what to do about it. You may be surprised to know that Mexico itself has an illegal immigration problem in the South. Hondurans often illegally work in the Dominican Republic. There are what are commonly termed Push/Pull factors that drive millions of people all over the world to leave their homelands and go to other countries to work. In Mexico - the country with which I am most familiar - there is the push factor of no jobs/horrible wages/malnutrition and the pull factor of the huge economic engine that is the US. Complicate that with the fact that Mexico depends on money sent back from its citizens abroad. Money coming back from the US is the third largest income Mexico makes, after oil and tourism. In the US, the employer is responsible for verifying eligibility to work, but the way the law is written, as long as the employer makes a good faith effort he’s pretty much in the clear. When INS started Operation Vanguard in Nebraska, it hit the meat packing plants very hard. Pressure from companies like IBP and the politicians stopped it. Meat packing in the Midwest relies on undocumented immigrants. They don’t want the law enforced. INS is notoriously underfunded and under-resourced. All those people who want to enforce the law have to accept higher prices, yes, but the US Congress also turns a blind eye in its funding. Where do you think the pressure comes from in that case? And when we’re talking about illegal immigration, it’s assumed we’re talking about dark skinned folk from Latin America. But what about all the visa overstays (which can be tourism, H1-B’s, higher education)? There are many, many of those, as well, but I don’t think those are the people the close-the-border folks are talking about. I don’t see/hear anyone all freaked out about the influx of the Russians/Poles/Serbs, etc. Is that because they’re white? Lastly, I’ve met/known quite a few people who have come to the US from Mexico to work. None of them really want to stay here. Most would happily go back to Mexico if they could take care of their families there. (And as a side note to those of you who worked hard jobs as teens: remember, the people we’re talking about have others than just themselves to provide for. It’s not really the same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/54 "2004-12-21T02:32:47Z")
Oh, and I forgot to mention, I assume that Bush’s drive for a guest worker program is, in part, and attempt to win over the Latino vote. Most Latinos are very conservative according to the US standard (with strong “family values”), and by rights “should” vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/55 "2004-12-21T02:44:04Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > (And as a side note to those of you who worked hard jobs as teens: remember, the people we’re talking about have others than just themselves to provide for. It’s not really the same thing.) Agreed. Those needs drove my mom to be a nanny and cleaning woman, my father to be a housepainter, and my grandfather a landscaper. All of these people, mind you, are native-born white Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/56 "2004-12-21T03:44:28Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > …why do, say, anti-war persons expect anyone to listen on a part of a war strategy when they dismiss the whole war? Same same. Because whether you should do something is a different question entirely to what the best way to do something is, having recognised that it is going to be done. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/57 "2004-12-21T03:52:38Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > Don’t forget that this is not a recent phenomenon - today’s American was yesterday’s immigrant, and it’s pretty much always been the newest immigrants with the least education that have taken on the hardest, dirtiest, lowest-paid jobs, with the hope that their children would be able to do better. It’s just that today the people are coming from Mexico and Central American countries, whereas before we had waves of Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants who did the same. Are we talking about immigrants (ie people who are citizens or who are going to be citizens when they’ve passed appropriate hurdles) or illegals to whom no rights are afforded but who it is convenient to turn a blind eye to? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/58 "2004-12-21T20:58:22Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > I don’t see/hear anyone all freaked out about the influx of the Russians/Poles/Serbs, etc. Is that because they’re white? Probably it’s more because there are relatively few of them. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/59 "2004-12-21T22:15:06Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > _Translation:_ “If these folks _want_ me to treat them like serfs, why shouldn’t I be allowed to do so?” > > Must be more of those “moral values” we keep hearing about… No, actually, it has to do with me having respect for these peoples intelligence and ability to make their own decisions about their lives rather than being a pompous little ass like you who thinks that they know what everyone should do. Must be that, “I’m a little Commie that loves to say I’m standing up for people but really I just love the bitching more than actually improving people’s lives,” that we keep hearing about… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812/60 "2004-12-22T00:08:50Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > No, actually, it has to do with me having respect for these peoples intelligence and ability to make their own decisions about their lives …but no respect for treating them like human beings. > [@threemae](#): > > rather than being a pompous little ass like you who thinks that they know what everyone should do. Do I _look_ like a Republican? Eww, ick! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jobs-americans-wont-do/280812.md?page=4)