# Joe Arapaio, Sentient Pustule **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 25, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376 "2010-12-25T21:14:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/41 "2010-12-26T08:19:03Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes, I’m absolutely aware of economies of scale. It’s certainly cheaper to buy in bulk. What, in bulk, provides prisoners with a healthy and nutritious diet for 14 cents a meal? Ramen Noodles and a multivitamin. I lived on that in college. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/42 "2010-12-26T08:45:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Let’s face it, if you’re accused of a crime - which 99.9% of the time you’ve actually committed (_“CITE!!!”_) - then life isn’t going to be too pleasant for a number of reasons (2" thick mattresses, thin blankets, cold stainless steel toilets, no privacy, no freedom, and utterly crappy roommates, just to name a few) and they will remain that way until you either make bail or the charges get dropped. I too would like a cite for that 99.9% figure. But suppose for a moment it’s true. That means 0.1% are innocent; that the government is subjecting innocent people to these conditions; the steel toilets, crappy roommates, and all the rest. Is that really okay with you, **Starv**? I keep hearing that government is the problem; that we must watch it like a hawk, limit the spread of its incompetence. And now it’s okay that one person in a thousand who’s arrested is treated this way and _they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong_? > [@Miller](#): > > On the 14 cents a day thing, my first inclination is to assume that it’s too little, simply because Arapaio thinks its a good idea. But, really, I have no basis to judge if that’s too little. I could easily see getting an acceptable meal for that price, if the scale is large enough. Is there a problem with incentives here? Let’s not forget that “if the scale is large enough” refers to actual incarcerated human beings. I’m fine with locking people up who have committed crimes. I see risk in a system where Arpaio can brag about his per-meal costs by increasing headcount, with no apparent regard to guilt or innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/43 "2010-12-26T09:10:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I too would like a cite for that 99.9% figure. > > But suppose for a moment it’s true. That means 0.1% are innocent; that the government is subjecting innocent people to these conditions; the steel toilets, crappy roommates, and all the rest. Is that really okay with you, **Starv**? I keep hearing that government is the problem; that we must watch it like a hawk, limit the spread of its incompetence. And now it’s okay that one person in a thousand who’s arrested is treated this way and _they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong_? We lock people in cages, keep them away from their families (or for that matter, from _supporting_ their families), prevent them from having sex with their loved ones keep them from going to ball games and movies, etc., etc., etc., but nobody thinks twice about that. So what are we to do? Imprison no one because 0.1% is innocent? So while I obviously don’t want innocent people to go to prison, I’m okay with it in the sense that it’s unavoidable unless we’re going to have a society in which no one goes to prison unless there’s 100% no doubt that they committed the crime. In which case most burglars, rapists and murderers would go scot-free. Would _that_ be okay with you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/44 "2010-12-26T09:20:52Z")
Dammit, **Robot** , you gave him an opportunity to do his hard-headed realist posture, and his Wilford Brimely impression! He loves that! You want him following you around? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/45 "2010-12-26T09:38:41Z")
No, it wouldn’t be okay with me, which is why I DIDN’T SUGGEST ANYTHING OF THE SORT. But there’s a difference between those who have been convicted and those who are who are waiting for a trial. Even if we accept your 99.9% figure, that means there are innocent people being deprived of their liberty by the government. Why aren’t you concerned about that? Still waiting for a cite on that figure, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/46 "2010-12-26T09:40:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Dammit, **Robot** , you gave him an opportunity to do his hard-headed realist posture, and his Wilford Brimely impression! He loves that! You want him following you around? Oh, I can take anything **Starving** can throw at me. It’s mostly just hangin’ curve balls, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/47 "2010-12-26T09:45:15Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/48 "2010-12-26T11:13:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > News: food in jail really, really sucks. > Outrage, outrage!!! Sorry, proper gruel as a steady 365 diet is not healthy. ""This recipe is based on the ingredients used in an 18th century workhouse. Gruel was one of the main foods provided. At this workhouse (Sunday-Thursday) on three days of the week, male inmates were served a pint and a half of gruel, a pint and a half of broth, five ounces of cooked meat, twelve ounces of bread and eight ounces of potatoes. On the three alternate days, the men were fed twelve ounces of bread, a pint and a half of gruel, a pint and a half of soup, and two ounces of cheese. On Fridays, they were served twelve ounces of bread, a pint and a half of gruel, fourteen ounces of suet or rice pudding, and two ounces of cheese. The meager menu was divided into three meals daily. Women and children were given slightly less. Ingredients ``` * 3 dessert spoonfuls of oatmeal * 1 pint of water * a little salt ``` “” Even these poor work house inmates got more than just gruel. Personally, as a diabetic, nothing but grain based gruel would have me pretty close to being hospitalized fairly shortly. And as it was pointed out, people who cant make bail are jailed as well. They are theoretically innocent until they hit trial, so we now have people who are theoretically innocent and unable to make bail sleeping on the ground and eating gruel. I hope the people who consider this suitable way to treat people may at some time be down on their luck, innocent and end up in this mans version of tender care so they can see how it is. I do not care how bad a criminal you are, you deserve a real room, a real bed and a real diet that will keep you healthy. I may be willing to pull the switch on you, but being treated like that is inhumane. That is verging on Buchenwald. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/49 "2010-12-26T11:39:50Z")
^ The definition of gruel was given in the OP. You have no reason to assume that your definition was the one that was meant. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/50 "2010-12-26T13:33:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I have to wonder how that rate of “Americans killing Americans” compares to fratricide in other countries. I always hear about the high number of handgun murders in the US, but how about knives, or strangulation, or good old fashioned clubbing? > > America probably doesn’t do badly at all, it you’re looking only at 20th century data. Maybe we were lucky getting mostly out of the civil war and genocide business in the 19th. And when you consider Stalin’s purges, Mao’s Cultural Revolution, Hitler’s… If you just want the murder rate by country for recent years, [that’s real easy to find.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate) The US looks pretty good compared to Central American countries, Africa, and parts of the former USSR. Looks crap when you consider that Afghanistan, Iran, Ireland, Serbia, and Croatia have lower murder rates. It’s not that America’s murder rate is sky high, it’s just incongruously high for such a wealthy country. Oh, and yes, the democide rate in America compares quite favorably to Stalist Russia. Well done there. To be partially on topic, yeah, jeez, I guess people from that part of Arizona must be sort of dumb to keep electing this guy. Not for the cruelty to prisoners, I can see how that could be popular. But the man appears to be a crooked publicity hound. Surely they could find another sadistic 80 year old who won’t steal from them so noisily. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/51 "2010-12-26T13:52:17Z")
Sounds like the lesson here is, if you can’t sing like a canary, don’t do the crime. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/52 "2010-12-26T14:08:12Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes, please. I’d like a cite that 99.9% of those arrested are convicted of a crime. When I read this it made me think of Japan, where they actually do have an absurdly high conviction rate due to forced confessions and a systematic breakdown of the justice system [(cite)](http://ideas.repec.org/p/wpa/wuwple/9907001.html). If we ever see a 99.9% conviction rate in the US, we are in trouble that is beyond deep (unless, of course, you’re white). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/53 "2010-12-26T16:21:35Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes, I’m absolutely aware of economies of scale. It’s certainly cheaper to buy in bulk. What, in bulk, provides prisoners with a healthy and nutritious diet for 14 cents a meal? Keep in mind we’re talking economics of a really big scale. We don’t buy bread in bulk - we buy flour in bulk and make bread. And if the climate was right, we’d be growing our own wheat to make the flour. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/54 "2010-12-26T16:27:33Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Ramen Noodles and a multivitamin. I lived on that in college. Ooh, _multivitamins_! Some of us weren’t born with Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm in our mouths, Richie Rich! Ramen wasn’t so bad. Would’ve been even easier to eat if I could’ve afforded water… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/55 "2010-12-26T16:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The top three inmate winners were given a “Christmas stocking full of canteen goodies”\* that the Sheriff asked them to donate to the charity of their choice.\* (emphasis mine)“Donate”? If this asshole sheriff asked them to donate their canteen supplies, do you think it was an entirely voluntary act on their part? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/56 "2010-12-26T17:09:14Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > To be partially on topic, yeah, jeez, I guess people from that part of Arizona must be sort of dumb to keep electing this guy. Not for the cruelty to prisoners, I can see how that could be popular. But the man appears to be a crooked publicity hound. Surely they could find another sadistic 80 year old who won’t steal from them so noisily. It’s not that they’re dumb, as such. It’s that an awful lot of them are sadistic 80-year-olds themselves… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/57 "2010-12-26T17:20:08Z")
The thing about 80 year olds is that they don’t have the ability to defend themselves from those younger than themselves, the kind of people that Joe has incarcerated. It also makes sense, on the face of it at least, that at 14 cents a meal you can lock up quite a few of those young trouble makers and keep them there safely, for those on the outside, behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/58 "2010-12-26T18:31:27Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I have to wonder how that rate of “Americans killing Americans” compares to fratricide in other countries. I always hear about the high number of handgun murders in the US, but how about knives, or strangulation, or good old fashioned clubbing? > > America probably doesn’t do badly at all, it you’re looking only at 20th century data. Maybe we were lucky getting mostly out of the civil war and genocide business in the 19th. And when you consider Stalin’s purges, Mao’s Cultural Revolution, Hitler’s… Meh, it’s not a contest, nor a moral issue, just fact: from that Wiki, ‘_In 2004, there were 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 persons, roughly three times as high as Canada (1.9) and six times as high as Germany (0.9_)’. Maybe there’s good reason for the murdering. In the Large Cities section, s’just that whilst I can accept that Detroit would have a high rate of people killing each other, I was surprised at Baltimore taking second place. It always sounds such a pretty place… > [@aruvqan](#): > > I do not care how bad a criminal you are, you deserve a real room, a real bed and a real diet that will keep you healthy. I may be willing to pull the switch on you, but being treated like that is inhumane. That is verging on Buchenwald. Yeah, and I don’t see how even if guilty as fuck, people shouldn’t be treated as you would want to be treated. Swedish model prisons seem almost ideal. The punishment consists in being deprived of liberty and being incarcerated with many annoying people; not in being starved in a dungeon and shouted at. > [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > If you just want the murder rate by country for recent years, [that’s real easy to find.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate) The US looks pretty good compared to Central American countries, Africa, and parts of the former USSR. Looks crap when you consider that Afghanistan, Iran, Ireland, Serbia, and Croatia have lower murder rates. It’s not that America’s murder rate is sky high, it’s just incongruously high for such a wealthy country. > > Oh, and yes, the democide rate in America compares quite favorably to Stalist Russia. Well done there Quite, and Nationmasters has a neat little list of 62 countries, from Columbia at _0.617847 per 1,000 people_ to Qatar at _0.00115868 per 1,000 people_ America is no. 24 at _0.042802 per 1,000 people_ , of **[Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)**. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/59 "2010-12-26T18:40:58Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Yeah, and I don’t see how even if guilty as fuck, people shouldn’t be treated as you would want to be treated. Do the criminals follow the creed as you suggest in the first sentence? > [@](#): > > Swedish model prisons seem almost ideal. The punishment consists in being deprived of liberty and being incarcerated with many annoying people; not in being starved in a dungeon and shouted at. What I’d be interested in knowing is which model results in a lower recidivism rate. If they are relatively equal numbers, I don’t see why we wouldn’t go with the one that saves the taxpayer the most money. Also, I don’t see why prisoners should expect any better treatment than the lowest members of society are subject to. I don’t mean the destitute, but those who work a couple of jobs and barely make enough to make ends meet. The ones who still continue to struggle and don’t commit crimes because of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/60 "2010-12-26T19:01:48Z")
Then you wouldn’t object to simply shooting them all? Say, for crimes against property valued at more than a hundred dollars? Recidivism would drop dramatically, to be sure. And since the only reason we have any crime problems at all is because we are such weak, lily-livered liberals, the addition of maximum penalty should have marvelous prophylactic effect, I would think. I mean, its not like they’re people, or anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376.md?page=4)