# Joe Arapaio, Sentient Pustule **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 25, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376 "2010-12-25T21:14:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/61 "2010-12-26T19:11:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I mean, its not like they’re people, or anything. Is Joe shooting people now? Is that what we’re talking about? I thought we are discussing the difference between eating food you like vs. food you don’t? Everything a 5 year old has to deal with at the dinner table nightly. As to the conditions, eg living in tents, I seem to remember doing similar when I was in the army and eating shitty food, too. Now you might say I chose to be in that predicament when I joined the army, but then most of the people in Joe’s jail are there because of what they chose to do, too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/62 "2010-12-26T19:19:06Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Is Joe shooting people now? Is that what we’re talking about? I thought we are discussing the difference between eating food you like vs. food you don’t? No, we’re talking about basic human rights for people who haven’t been convicted of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/63 "2010-12-26T19:22:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, we’re talking about basic human rights for people who haven’t been convicted of a crime. So, they don’t get food? Are they actually starving? Or they just don’t like bologna sandwiches? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/64 "2010-12-26T19:22:33Z")
Many people keep dragging prisons into this; Arpaio does not run a _prison_; he runs a _jail_. Jail is where you go when you’re arrested; most people only stay there as long as it takes to arrange bail; those who are denied bail, or those who cannot afford even the fraction it takes to arrange a bond, will stay there longer. In some jurisdictions, the jail is also used to imprison those convicted of misdemeanors, but I do not believe this is the case in Maricopa County. It’s important to remember this: while most people who are in jail will be found guilty, many will be found guilty of infractions that will not even get prison sentences – if you’re drunk in public, if you throw a tantrum in a shopping mall, if you don’t appear in traffic court for a speeding ticket – you are subject to arrest; if you do it in Maricopa County, you may spend a night in Arpaio’s hellhole. Arpaio is not responsible for punishing criminals; he’s responsible for confining suspects. People are also talking about law enforcement – the County Sheriff is not really in that business. While sheriff’s deputies do patrol the unincorporated areas, waterways, parks, and seven contract cities that do not have their own police, around 3/4 of the county population lives in Phoenix, and most of the rest live in other cities in the Phoenix metropolitan area which are served by their own police departments. Running the jail is the sheriff’s main responsibility, and Arpaio’s efforts to shoehorn himself into law enforcement inside the cities have been a considerable aggravation to the Phoenix PD and DA’s office. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/65 "2010-12-26T19:30:40Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I have to wonder how that rate of “Americans killing Americans” compares to fratricide in other countries. I always hear about the high number of handgun murders in the US, but how about knives, or strangulation, or good old fashioned clubbing? > > America probably doesn’t do badly at all, it you’re looking only at 20th century data. Maybe we were lucky getting mostly out of the civil war and genocide business in the 19th. And when you consider Stalin’s purges, Mao’s Cultural Revolution, Hitler’s… Our homicide rate in recent years has been around 5 out of every 100,000. I believe it peaked around 35 years ago at 8-9 per 100,000. I’ve heard that at the turn of the century (1900) it was around 1 per 100,000 if not lower. Some NRA types will point out that gun ownership was more common back then and that we had an extremely low homicide rate. I won’t wade into that debate but I’ll say that I’ve always been a _causation_ guy, I don’t put much stock in random correlations people can pull out of data without showing some form of causal link. I believe in much of the rest of the industrialized world the homicide rate is sub-2 per 100,000. Some ultra-safe countries it is below 1 per 100,000, I think the larger European countries are in between 1 and 2, with Scandinavia and Germany being like 0.9 per 100,000. Now, of course that is just “homicide” in terms of criminal murder. I’m not sure how we stack up in the larger set of intra-national killing which includes things like killing during civil wars and etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/66 "2010-12-26T19:31:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Is that what we’re talking about? I thought we are discussing the difference between eating food you like vs. food you don’t? Everything a 5 year old has to deal with at the dinner table nightly. Holiday treats aside, the gripes against Arpaio regarding shitty food aren’t really about “food you don’t like” but “food that is inedible, inadequate or possibly hazardous to your health.” [http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1540979.html](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1540979.html) > [@](#): > > The district court concluded that the Eighth Amendment requires that “prisoners receive food that is adequate to maintain health.” LeMaire v. Maass, 12 F.3d 1444, 1456(9th Cir1993). The Amended Judgment required that detainees be provided food that meets or exceeds the Department of Agriculture’s Dietary Guidelines. The Dietary Guidelines recommend 2400 calories daily for males aged 19-30 with a sedentary activity level, and 2600-2800 calories daily for males aged 19-30 with a moderately active lifestyle. The district court found that, if Sheriff Arpaio afforded pretrial detainees the amount of recreation time they were entitled to under the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments, most pre-detainees would fall into the “moderately active” category. The Maricopa County dietician testified that he designs menus to provide each prisoner with approximately 2400 to 2500 calories a day. The district court did not credit this testimony because the menus submitted to the court were exceedingly vague, it was clear that the dietician did not actually know what prisoners were fed, and substantial testimony from pretrial detainees established that they are often given food that is overripe, moldy, and generally inedible. The district court ultimately found that pretrial detainees are not given food that satisfies the Dietary Guidelines and that Sheriff Arpaio had produced no evidence showing that the Dietary Guidelines exceed what was necessary for adequate nutrition. > [@](#): > > As to the conditions, eg living in tents, I seem to remember doing similar when I was in the army and eating shitty food, too. I’m going to assume that taste aside the army fed you enough, and that it met USDA guidelines for macro- and micronutrients, and that as a plus what was on your plate probably wasn’t regularly moldy or rotten. If not, you have a legitimate gripe as well. > [@](#): > > Now you might say I chose to be in that predicament when I joined the army, but then most of the people in Joe’s jail are there because of what they chose to do, too. Not necessarily. As has been pointed out and is noted in the caselaw link, the complaints are from pre-trial detainees, who are presumed innocent until found guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/67 "2010-12-26T19:43:03Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, they don’t get food? Are they actually starving? Or they just don’t like bologna sandwiches? A court has found that the food is inadequately nutritious and often spoiled or rotten. So, no. They aren’t getting adequate food. You’re also ignoring the fact that many of these people have not been convicted of any crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/68 "2010-12-26T19:45:42Z")
MRE’s are fucking gourmet compared to the shit these people are getting. That’s not a valid comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/69 "2010-12-26T19:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You’re also ignoring the fact that many of these people have not been convicted of any crime. [/QUOTE] I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t really care. I’ve managed to live half my life without ending up in a jail cell even for a moment. I can pretty much guarantee that I’ll live the last half of my life without going there either. I’ve been dirt poor and well off over that period of time. I can’t conceive of anything that I’d do or be inclined to do that would get me in that predicament. Even given that most of the people in the jail are there before they’ve had a trial, most of them are there for a reason that they could have prevented from occurring in the first place. Should they be punished because of it? Nope. Should they be given a room at the Ritz and free room service while awaiting trial? Nope. > [@](#): > > MRE’s are fucking gourmet compared to the shit these people are getting. That’s not a valid comparison. I’m not talking about MRE’s. A hotdog on a bun isn’t anymore nutritious than a bologna sandwich. Or some chef thinks that New England boiled dinner (cabbage in water with a carrot), is the height of cuisine and can power someone humping a rucksack over difficult terrain. Now sitting on your ass while awaiting trial? Probably. Given the quality of food that it is said Joe is serving, where are the starving people? Is the food causing people to be sick? Are the sick numbers for his jail any different than other jails? (Are there no workhouses, etc \> channeling scrooge here! heh) Or is it that you don’t like what he is doing and trying to find ways to argue against it? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/70 "2010-12-26T19:56:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > MRE’s are fucking gourmet compared to the shit these people are getting. That’s not a valid comparison. Not to detract too far but I used to love taking MREs on camping trips, I honestly always enjoyed them. Something a lot of people may not know is that MREs have a fucking nuclear fuck ton of calories in them. Prisoners would all be obese if they had 3 meals consisting of an MRE each per day. MREs are not like a TV dinner, they’re supposed to be something you can eat when you’re in a situation in which you need a ton of energy and over relatively short time spans. It’s not the often soldiers in the 21st century are so disconnected from a supply line that they eat MREs for a lengthy period of time (I believe they officially are considered suitable as your only food for 3 weeks time.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/71 "2010-12-26T20:01:03Z")
I don’t know enough about the food industry to know anything about the $0.14 meals. They should be evaluated based on a few different criteria: 1. Are inmates receiving enough calories to cover the amount of intake a sedentary or lightly active adult human needs in a given day, assuming average body weight? 2. Are inmates receiving key vitamins and nutrients that are important for good health? 3. Are inmates receiving food that is by and large free from contamination by various food-borne agents as well as food that is not spoiled or rotten. On point 3, I say “by and large” because no group of persons who are eating in mass cafeteria style arrangements can be guaranteed their food is never contaminated or spoiled. I’ve bought food from the grocery store and gotten it home only to realize it was something that was spoiled or had some other problem with it. Soldiers and school children have unfortunately had food contaminated with salmonella or et cetera make it all the way to their cafeteria trays. That stuff happens, what I mean with point 3 is that prisoners should generally be able to expect the food is safe, and the $0.14 price shouldn’t mean that there is a higher than acceptable likelihood the food is contaminated or spoiled. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/72 "2010-12-26T20:04:24Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t really care. I’ve managed to live half my life without ending up in a jail cell even for a moment. I can pretty much guarantee that I’ll live the last half of my life without going there either. I’ve been dirt poor and well off over that period of time. I can’t conceive of anything that I’d do or be inclined to do that would get me in that predicament. I am sure those who are falsly charged, or charged in error feel the same way. There, but for the grace of Og… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/73 "2010-12-26T20:39:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am sure those who are falsly charged, or charged in error feel the same way. There, but for the grace of Og… Hey, I agree. But I don’t hang out with criminals, nor do my loved ones. There is no reason we will be involved with the police other than if the criminals come to us. Unless we are going to say that the police are randomly picking up people to charge with crimes. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen and I’m the first to say that, for the most part, cops are idiots and bullies, but randomly arresting people for no reason isn’t a practice that stays silent for any length of time. People who get arrested and thrown in jail tend to be those who have done ‘something’ that puts them in the cops radar. **Martin** said it better than I. I’d add that Joe has a certain persona that makes people on the other side of the political spectrum see red. Is it politics that causes people to say that prisoners are being deprived, or, in comparison to other jurisdictions, is he actually depriving his prisoners? And even if the latter, is that level of mistreatment unacceptable? Are people actually starving? Are people not getting enough essential nutrients? And by essential, I mean no worse than those at the lower end of the economic scale who work hard, pay their taxes, etc, who may not get the daily food guide recommendations. Why should prisoners get better than them? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/74 "2010-12-26T20:57:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Is it politics that causes people to say that prisoners are being deprived, or, in comparison to other jurisdictions, is he actually depriving his prisoners? And even if the latter, is that level of mistreatment unacceptable? Are people actually starving? Are people not getting enough essential nutrients? And by essential, I mean no worse than those at the lower end of the economic scale who work hard, pay their taxes, etc, who may not get the daily food guide recommendations. Why should prisoners get better than them? I’m not sure that’s a fair metric, not least because the non-detainee has the freedom to make the choices of what they will buy and eat (to the extent that they can afford, anyway.) How bad would a non-criminal poverty-stricken citizen’s voluntarily chosen diet need to be before you would say “it would be cruel to treat a detainee like that”? And does this work better as an argument against giving prisoners better food than their non-jailed counterparts can afford, or as an argument for making better food more available for the poor? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/75 "2010-12-26T21:00:44Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t really care… Already abundantly clear. You’re a hard-headed realist, proud to advertise that you are free from bleeding-heart namby-pambyism. A tough guy. > [@](#): > > …Should they be punished because of it? Nope. Should they be given a room at the Ritz and free room service while awaiting trial? Nope… Would all such persons as are advocating free room service at the Ritz kindly raise their hands? Zero? Ah. > [@](#): > > …Given the quality of food that it is said Joe is serving, where are the starving people?.. Boy, when you say you don’t care, you mean you _really_ don’t care! Pat yourself on the back, you are a tough guy. Lucky us, we never seem to run out of tough guys. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/76 "2010-12-26T21:03:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What _does_ an inmate get for 14 cents? How many calories? Vitamin content? from here: [http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-82231.html](http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-82231.html) Bologna sandwich: Rather than serve inmates three square meals a day, Arpaio decided to save money and return to the days when the term “prison food” meant something. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/77 "2010-12-26T21:48:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Already abundantly clear. You’re a hard-headed realist, proud to advertise that you are free from bleeding-heart namby-pambyism. A tough guy. Why thank you very much. I’ve tried to look at people the way they are rather than what I’d wish them to be. It is nice to be recognized for the effort. Now if we can just get the rest of the bleeding hearts to recognize that it takes a stick along with a carrot to change behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/78 "2010-12-26T21:49:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve managed to live half my life without ending up in a jail cell even for a moment. I can pretty much guarantee that I’ll live the last half of my life without going there either. How can you guarantee that? By not committing any crime? A lot of the people who are currently in custody in the Maricopa County Jail never committed any crime. They’re awaiting their trials where they’ll be found innocent and released. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/79 "2010-12-26T21:51:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve tried to look at people the way they are rather than what I’d wish them to be. I think you’re just living under a different set of illusions. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376/80 "2010-12-26T21:52:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How can you guarantee that? By not committing any crime? A lot of the people who are currently in custody in the Maricopa County Jail never committed any crime. They’re awaiting their trials where they’ll be found innocent and released. Most people on the planet manage to make it through their lives without ending up in jail for a single night. How do they do that? Just by luck? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arapaio-sentient-pustule/565376.md?page=5)