# Joe Arpaio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398 "2012-11-28T19:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/201 "2012-12-04T20:41:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > While you are waiting, consider the fact that 99% of all those sent to prison will one day be released. Now, if you make prison life as grievous as possible, imposing conditions just this side of what the law allows, for no other reason than to inflict discomfort, do you imagine that is going to result in a person disposed to re-integrating with the society that approved of such conditions, or might he carry a bit of a chip on his shoulder? > > Just sayin’. I think that out of all the various influences and factors that cause a convict to return to a life of crime, the role society may have played in the lifestyle he enjoyed while in prison would be at or near the bottom of the list. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/202 "2012-12-04T20:49:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think that out of all the various influences and factors that cause a convict to return to a life of crime, the role society may have played in the lifestyle he enjoyed while in prison would be at or near the bottom of the list. You think, but your thinking has shown itself to be… eh… let’s just say “kinda shit”. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/203 "2012-12-04T20:57:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Hey guys, why didn’t anyone warn me that I was dealing with one of _those_ people? We didn’t want to spoil the surprise. Well, did it work? Were you surprised? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/204 "2012-12-04T21:02:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think that out of all the various influences and factors that cause a convict to return to a life of crime, the role society may have played in the lifestyle he enjoyed while in prison would be at or near the bottom of the list. Why would you think that? Or is it just more “common sense” ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/205 "2012-12-04T21:13:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think that out of all the various influences and factors that cause a convict to return to a life of crime, the role society may have played in the lifestyle he enjoyed while in prison would be at or near the bottom of the list. Wha-wha-whaaaaaaaat? Did you just say the prison environment has very little impact on recidivism rates? Then what the hell have we been arguing about for this long? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/206 "2012-12-04T21:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …What I do see is lots of people on the street in their late twenties and early thirties with rap sheets a mile long for multiple drug and violent crime convictions, up to and including manslaughter and Murder 2 convictions, roaming around robbing, raping and killing people who would have been much better off if these people hadn’t received the enlightened largess of liberals who paradoxically think that keeping criminals locked up is inhumane and damaging to society, when the true inhumanity is visited upon the families and loved ones of the victims these people injure or kill, and the damage to society is that we all have to live with the knowledge that vicious criminals are being turned loose time and again to prey upon us by liberal do-gooders who care not in the slightest for the victims they create through their wrongheaded attempts to rehabilitate the unrehabilitatable… A sentence that wanders bleakly across the page, endlessly seeking the release of the period, or even the restful semi-colon, but finding only commas, trudges wearily on, and on, and on. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/207 "2012-12-04T21:32:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What I do see is lots of people on the street in their late twenties and early thirties with rap sheets a mile long for multiple drug and violent crime convictions, up to and including manslaughter and Murder 2 convictions, roaming around robbing, raping and killing people who would have been much better off if these people hadn’t received the enlightened largess of liberals who paradoxically think that keeping criminals locked up is inhumane and damaging to society, when the true inhumanity is visited upon the families and loved ones of the victims these people injure or kill, and the damage to society is that we all have to live with the knowledge that vicious criminals are being turned loose time and again to prey upon us by liberal do-gooders who care not in the slightest for the victims they create through their wrongheaded attempts to rehabilitate the unrehabilitatable. I guess you must not live in Maricopa County, then. Obviously, Sheriff Joe fixes all them serial rapists from their lives of crime by making them wear pink underwear. I heard that, on account of inmates watching the Disney channel, the crime rate in Maricopa County is actually negative. People break into houses to _give_ you things. And I’m talking nice things, like iPads and pearl earrings. Plus the perps stick around to fix the window they busted in, mostly because if they didn’t do the work, there’s no cheap immigrant labor there for homeowners to hire anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/208 "2012-12-04T22:33:03Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > We didn’t want to spoil the surprise. > > Well, did it work? Were you surprised? _It was not a very good surprise_. -.- ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/209 "2012-12-04T22:38:58Z")
I fix that by being a pessimist. All surprises are good for me. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/210 "2012-12-04T22:48:24Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes. Which does _not_ mean they will suddenly turn from a life of crime to some other life which they probably don’t understand how to lead in the first place. _Especially_ if they are offered nothing in terms of _rehabilitation_ and are treated like less than human. Especially when the only thing the prison teaches them is cruelty. It’s common sense to believe that they’d less like to return there, but more often than not, they are stuck in situations in their lives that _will_ lead them back, and _if you do nothing to change that, it does not matter how shitty the jail is_. Meanwhile, jails which are explicitly more shitty may in fact lead to people having grudges against society. Ever think of that? Yeah, I’ve thought of it. Just answered it as a matter of fact. And I’m sorry but I just can’t buy it that a guy coming from a background where all he’s known is drugs and crime and the street, and everyone he knows and all his family are enmeshed in that same environment, and where the way he talks and the way he carries himself and the values he holds have all been deeply ingrained by that environment, would otherwise turn away from and overcome all that except for…he’s pissed off and holds a grudge because of the way he was treated in prison. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Let’s be clear on how the penal systems in civilized european countries work. Brevik is, for all intents and purposes, gone for life. He will never leave prison. They cannot sentence him to more than 21 years, but if he is considered still dangerous, they can keep on adding 5 year periods until his is considered no longer dangerous (i.e. he’s dead or at least ridiculously old). And guess what: with his statement in trial “I would do it again if I had the chance”, there’s no way in hell he’s getting out of that. So take that 21 years crap and stuff it; Brevik is not going to leave prison outside of a coffin. Is this another one of those opinions I’m supposed to regard as fact? There is no way you know this to be so. Twenty one years is a long time in terms of changing sentiments. He could very easily claim that he was young and under the spell of some misbegotten notion that he could right the world’s wrongs by the actions that he now knows were so horrible and how sorry he is for all the lives his actions ruined and he’s a different person now and can no longer understand how he could have felt that way to begin with and now he would never even think of harming someone. And then the Norse do-gooders would say "Aw, what a good boy he is now. See how well our superior holier-than-thou methods have worked versus those of our more conservative and punitive brethren. Clearly he is no longer a threat to us or anybody else and may be set free to continue living the balance of his life as a free and happy contributor to our wonderfully enlightened society. “Wait, what’s that you say? There’s an angry mob of victim survivors demonstrating outside? Ah, (insert whatever’s Norse of “Fuck”) them! _Of course_ they’re going to be howling for blood! But what the hell, we aren’t the ones who had to suffer days and months and years because our loved ones were senselessly and deliberately murdered by this man, and fortunately we are therefore in a position to arrive at our determination free from emotional baggage which might otherwise cloud our judgement. Yes, I know people say we care only about the criminal and nothing about the victims, but you know what? They’re right! Ahahahaha!!!” Ahem…I digress again. Anyway, you get the point. And then when he, or someone similarly released, goes out and kills someone else, the response will be the same as when our parolees go out and kill someone else: “Well, we thought he was okay now. Too bad we were wrong on this one. But hey, look at all the other guys we released who haven’t killed somebody! How great for them, huh?” Well, yeah, if you care nothing about justice for the people they already killed. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes. Which is exactly why the norwegian system works so damn well - it doesn’t focus on punitive measures and instead focuses on the question of “how can we get these people to act like civilized human beings once they leave here?”. Well, in that case I can answer that for them: Reprogram their value system and thought processes. Teach them how to speak with, behave and interact with the people they’ll be around in their new environment so they won’t feel like an outsider. Set them up with jobs and homes away from everything and everyone they knew before. And hope and trust they’ll live happily ever after while never attempting to contact anyone from their previous life. Sounds like a much bigger job than any prison could handle if you ask me. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yeah, see, that’s what just isn’t true. In norway, they offer things like job training, education, and the like - _while in prison_. Hell, Varg Vikernes, infamous frontman of Burzum, was able to record an album while in prison for the murder of a former bandmate. (It was a pretty fucking brutal album, I feel is worth mentioning.) There _are_ things you can do. Hell, even the psychological effects of not being caged in with other criminals in a hostile environment can help. And the fact is, the statistics support it. Whether or not you will admit it, _a focus on rehabilitation works_. See, murder is where I draw the line on rehabilitation. If you deliberately murder someone, you don’t deserve to be drawing breath in my opinion. There is no justice, no fairness, and no equity in allowing people to continue to enjoy life after they’ve made the irrevocable decision to deprive someone else of theirs. And it’s unfair to the victims’ families and loved ones. You guys get outraged and whinge about inmates suffering pink underwear and moldy sandwiches and 120 degree temperatures, yet you give absolutely not on whit of consideration to the people whose lives are utterly ruined and will never be the same because someone decided to murder their loved one or loved ones. People get over Arpaio’s jail. They may not forget it, but once they’re out they’re over moldy sandwiches and hot tents and Frank Sinatra music. People are never over the rape and murder of their daughters, or the loss of their parents or their husband or wife. And it is far, far more cruel to these people for their loved ones’ murderer to be walking free than is anything Joe Arpaio has ever concocted. This is what so mystifies my about you people. You happily work to parole convicts with multiple violent felonies and concern yourselves not a whit when these paroles result in innocent people being raped, robbed and murdered when they wouldn’t have been had these assholes remained in prison like they should. And while you whinge endlessly about the rare innocent person who get wrongfully executed, you are utterly silent and seem to care nothing about the fate of all the people who’ve been murdered by convicted and paroled murderers…a number that utterly dwarfs those who’ve been wrongfully executed. So in other words, why do you find misdemeanors so outrageous when your solution to them cause felonies, and why do you ignore the felonies you thereby cause, which are so much worse? > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Meanwhile, Arpaio’s system? The “scare them so bad they don’t get put back into jail” system? It _doesn’t_. It fails resoundingly at making any sort of positive impact. All it does is heap unnecessary additional punishment on prisoners, a decent portion of whom are there waiting for trials and hearings and haven’t been convicted of anything, let alone anything serious. Well, once again, the fact they haven’t been tried doesn’t mean they aren’t guilty. And also once again, we (and every other country) routinely take people from their families, their source of income, and rob them of their freedom because they’ve been accused of a crime and arrested. They get placed in jail cells with all sorts of unsavory people even under the best of circumstances. So it’s not like people who haven’t been convicted have never suffered except under Arpaio. His additional discomforts are minor in comparison, and in my opinion are well worth it in terms of discouraging future miscreancy (:)) on the part of the vast majority who are guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/211 "2012-12-04T22:51:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A sentence that wanders bleakly across the page, endlessly seeking the release of the period, or even the restful semi-colon, but finding only commas, trudges wearily on, and on, and on. Yeah, I know. I was aware of it at the time, but I was in a hurry and didn’t want to take time to go back and clean it up. Think of James Joyce and it’ll seem a trifle. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/212 "2012-12-04T22:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, once again, the fact they haven’t been tried doesn’t mean they aren’t guilty. And also once again, we (and every other country) routinely take people from their families, their source of income, and rob them of their freedom because they’ve been accused of a crime and arrested. They get placed in jail cells with all sorts of unsavory people even under the best of circumstances. So it’s not like people who haven’t been convicted have never suffered except under Arpaio. His additional discomforts are minor in comparison, and in my opinion are well worth it in terms of discouraging future miscreancy (:)) on the part of the vast majority who are guilty. There’s a guy named **Starving Artist** in the Jerry Sandusky thread; I’m sure you two would go at it tooth-and-nail. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/213 "2012-12-04T23:00:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wha-wha-whaaaaaaaat? Did you just say the prison environment has very little impact on recidivism rates? > > Then what the hell have we been arguing about for this long? I’m saying that the namby-pamby prison environment favored by my opponents will have no positive effect on recidivism vs. a more uncomfortable one either as it is now or as run by Joe Arpaio. When it comes to recidivism, in my opinion you have two choices: One, Arpaio’s approach, which is probably more effective than the standard jail or prison environment. Or… Two, educate every inmate in an employable skill, completely reprogram his thinking and values, teach him modes of dress, speech and behavior that will serve him well out in the American mainstream, and in effect set him up in the witness protection program where he’ll have a job, a home, a car, and a life far away from everything and everyone he’s ever known and to which he may never return. Other than that, you’re just jerkin’ off to feel superior to the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/214 "2012-12-04T23:12:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Other than that, you’re just jerkin’ off to feel superior to the masses. Does that work? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/215 "2012-12-05T00:06:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m saying that the namby-pamby prison environment favored by my opponents will have no positive effect on recidivism vs. a more uncomfortable one either as it is now or as run by Joe Arpaio. Translation: “Statistics? I see no statistics, LALALALALALALALALALA”. And at this point, debate becomes unnecessary, because we’re dealing with someone who is not interested in facts. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/216 "2012-12-05T00:56:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A sentence that wanders bleakly across the page, endlessly seeking the release of the period, or even the restful semi-colon, but finding only commas, trudges wearily on, and on, and on. I stopped reading early to contemplate the powers this . . . person possesses that allow him to know a person’s criminal record just by looking at him. Care to spoil the ending for me? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/217 "2012-12-05T01:02:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Translation: “Statistics? I see no statistics, LALALALALALALALALALA”. > > And at this point, debate becomes unnecessary, because we’re dealing with someone who is not interested in facts. Yeah, I mentioned that. I pointed out that, to the torture supporting right such as the specimen in question, Arpaio’s behaviour is acceptable because he’s okay with it. It makes him feel good, so therefore it is good. This is a moral position common to toddlers and right-wing adults. Don’t tell him that his being okay with it is not the measuring stick grownups use to determine right or wrong. He’ll get upset. On second thought, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/218 "2012-12-05T02:37:27Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I stopped reading early to contemplate the powers this . . . person possesses that allow him to know a person’s criminal record just by looking at him. Care to spoil the ending for me? He means black people. Also brown people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/219 "2012-12-05T02:43:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I guess you must not live in Maricopa County, then. Obviously, Sheriff Joe fixes all them serial rapists from their lives of crime by making them wear pink underwear. When he catches them . . . Actually, his department has been accused of neglecting sex-crimes investigations. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/220 "2012-12-05T03:59:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m saying that the namby-pamby prison environment favored by my opponents will have no positive effect on recidivism vs. a more uncomfortable one either as it is now or as run by Joe Arpaio. > > When it comes to recidivism, in my opinion you have two choices: One, Arpaio’s approach, which is probably more effective than the standard jail or prison environment. But as others have said, Apraio is only running a county jail, not a correctional center. Many of the people there have not been convicted of any crime at all. Those who have are not gang bangers or murderers. They have committed misdemeanors and have less than a year on their sentence. His strategy takes minor criminals at best, and many likely innocent people and subjects them to humiliation. That, if anything, would turn a minor criminal into a person with an immense hate for the system. Such harsh conditions are disproportionate to the crimes these people may or may not have committed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=12)