# Joe Arpaio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398 "2012-11-28T19:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/301 "2012-12-10T08:39:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crime_woo) is a good source here – page on “Crime Woo”: 75% ? Well, that only proves that prisons are not harsh and dehumanizing enough. The beatings _must_ continue until morale improves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/302 "2012-12-10T13:12:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …And don’t forget you’re older than me, uncle luce…'. Yes, but my mind is still nimble and playful, yours has entered the last stages of fossilization, your thoughts of interest only to specialists in coprolites. I have been alive longer, but you are much, much older. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/303 "2012-12-10T17:04:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yes, but my mind is still nimble and playful.. Oh, I don’t know. Yours is certainly given to Alzheimerly repetitions of your read-somewhere-and-modified-to-apply to me quips, like the one below: > [@](#): > > Didja ever notice that whenever Starkers does his version of Cher’s Absolutely Positively Final No, This Time I’m Not Kidding Farewell Tour, the room gets a bit brighter? How many times has the board been treated to this line alone? A dozen at least? > [@elucidator](#): > > yours has entered the last stages of fossilization, your thoughts of interest only to specialists in coprolites. > > I have been alive longer, but you are much, much older. I think you’d be surprised. I’m not quite the dodderer you’d like to think. Besides, the philosophies and opinions I have which cause you to arrive at this opinion existed even in my teens and early twenties. (As did your proclivities toward drug use and anti-social behavior, no doubt :)). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/304 "2012-12-10T18:53:52Z")
In my teens, I worked for Goldwater, was in the Junior Air Force Cadets, and a solemn acolyte of Saint Ayn of Leningrad. I got better. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/305 "2012-12-10T18:59:18Z")
Oh, I don’t know, you still seem to have the same proclivity for political extremes. You just bounded to the opposite end of the spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/306 "2012-12-10T19:06:56Z")
Get a room! ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/307 "2012-12-10T20:10:58Z")
I am only familiar with the Australian prison system and I know that a much larger proportion of our prisoners are considered to have serious mental illness than the general community. Here it is very dependant on individual police whether you are taken to the police station or hospital if acting under distress. Many people with serious illness float between prison and hospital for their entire lives with only periods of homelessness in between. I am unaware of any research that indicates poor nutrition, discomfort and pink undies are useful in treating serious mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/308 "2012-12-10T20:53:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > How many times has the board been treated to this line alone? A dozen at least? There’s one \*very \*simple solution ensuring that you never need hear it again, and that he never need utter it again. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/309 "2012-12-10T20:59:35Z")
Nah, despite our differences I think **luci’s** a net gain to the board. I’d hate to see him leave, myself. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/310 "2012-12-10T21:06:40Z")
Evidently I underestimated how simple it needed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/311 "2012-12-10T21:08:43Z")
Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/312 "2012-12-10T21:28:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Evidently I underestimated how simple it needed to be. - I see what you did there :)\*. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/313 "2012-12-10T21:36:37Z")
So did I. But let’s face it, _some_ sort of response was called for. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/314 "2012-12-10T22:42:53Z")
Meanwhile, [Joe Arpaio visits San Francisco and is disappointed with the lack of protesters.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/07/joe-arpaio-san-francisco_n_2257510.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/315 "2012-12-10T23:03:46Z")
Sheesh, its like he wants to flaunt himself in front of people who despise his views and his obstinate refusal to accept change. What kind of weirdo does that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/316 "2012-12-10T23:16:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sheesh, its like he wants to flaunt himself in front of people who despise his views and his obstinate refusal to accept change. What kind of weirdo does that? Does his name rhyme with “shmarving fartist?” ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/317 "2012-12-10T23:48:43Z")
I’d love to see the Westboro Baptist Church invite Sheriff Joe to speak one Sunday. I’m betting he’d accept. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/318 "2012-12-11T00:01:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Does his name rhyme with “shmarving fartist?” Nah, I’ve noticed **shmarving fartist** usually just comes into a thread to offer his opinion like everyone else, and then out of a sense of fair play tries to answer the people who for whatever reason feel compelled to challenge him. Perhaps I only notice that because I’m much the same way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@The\_Dord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Dord)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/319 "2012-12-11T01:03:23Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d love to see the Westboro Baptist Church invite Sheriff Joe to speak one Sunday. I’m betting he’d accept. SHHH! Don’t mention those freaks! Next, he’ll be defending them too if a (recent) Pit thread existed against the quacks!: eek: ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/320 "2012-12-11T02:15:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually, most of the death and ruined or destroyed lives I’ve been most aware of in my life have come about as the result of liberal indulgence (drugs, fatherless children) or liberal do-gooderism (housing projects, police hand-tying and protectorship/shielding of high-crime groups, and criminal/murderer releasement). Cite the liberal positions or legislation that led to drugs and fatherless children and the conservative alternatives. Likewise shielding “high crime groups” (is this referring to the Civil Rights Act?) or releasing murderers. I’d especially like to see the conservative alternative to housing projects. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Two of us have presented real world evidence, plus there’s the very obvious and well known human response to unpleasant or irritating stimuli, which often goes by the name of “avoidance.” If you’re using psychological terminology, avoidance is actually more to do with personality (someone with an avoidant personality disorder would seek to avoid socialising in order to reduce the chances of being denigrated) than with conditioning. The relevant psychological concept would be the “law of effect”, but that’s given way to more complex models, such as the theory of planned behaviour and other cost/benefit models, which encompass more variables. Salient information for a rational actor would include perceived likelihood of being caught, costs of being caught, benefits of pursuing the particular crime (including the impact of how the criminal is perceived) and the extent to which such a behaviour is under the control of an actor. One of the limitations of such a model is that one of the underlying assumptions breaks down for many criminals - those suffering from schizophrenia are not likely to be rational actors. Even a “normal” criminal is likely to have some self-serving biases (“no way am I ever going to get caught again!”). If these weren’t corrected for, we’d probably expect very low rates of observed recidivism (even if rates were high, we’d see fewer criminals caught). Not to mention, the causative chain for the law of effect tends to break down when there is a gap between action and consequence, whether positive or negative. We see that in cases of corporal punishment and hyperbolic discounting. In fact, relying merely on punitive measures does nothing to address causes of crime, or recidivism rates would be nil in hideously repressive third world countries (and given some capacity for vicarious learning, crime rates would be, too). Outlawing homelessness doesn’t put people in homes, outlawing stealing doesn’t feed unemployed ex-convicts. [Not that it hasn’t all been done before](http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch28.htm). Anyway, time for an SA moment of zen: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > What I do see is lots of people on the street in their late twenties and early thirties with rap sheets a mile long for multiple drug and violent crime convictions, up to and including manslaughter and Murder 2 convictions, roaming around robbing, raping and killing people > [@Starving Artist](#): > > one of the infinitesimal number of people falsely accused of a crime > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Once you start assuming people to be guilty of crimes simply because they’ve committed similar crimes at other times, or because that particular crime especially pisses you off, or because the suspect is an all around bad guy, than at that point you become a far greater threat to the innocent and to society than the people you’re trying to prosecute. from [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15545480&postcount=4629). > [@Starving Artist](#): > > This is why we have to have evidence before we charge people with a crime, and it’s why we have trials after they’re charged. We don’t convict people simply because we suspect they were up to no good. Specific crimes have to be alleged, and there has to be sufficient evidence to overcome reasonable doubt. Where alternative explanations are possible, as they are in this case whether you like it or not, there has to be sufficient evidence to persuade reasonable people on the jury to rule out those alternative explanations. from [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14615366&postcount=1877). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=17)