# Joe Arpaio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398 "2012-11-28T19:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/21 "2012-11-28T20:48:25Z")
Let’s keep in mind that most of the inmates are pre-trial detainees who have not been found guilty of a crime. Also, you know all that money he’s saving by providing meals that cost 20 cents? Maybe all the savings are being used to fund court-ordered damages to former inmates: through 2009, there were $43 million in judgments against the sheriffs office. “Joe Arpaio: he makes criminals into millionaires!” ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/22 "2012-11-28T20:48:36Z")
Not everyone in the jail has been found guilty, necessarily. Some are being help pending trial. Also, did she make any mention of the inmates that have been killed in captivity, or anything about the millions this pompous dick is costing the county in wrongful death and other lawsuits? And he has not been elected _fourteen_ times. ETA: Ravenman was mere seconds ahead of me! ---
**Author:** ![cleveland024](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@cleveland024](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleveland024)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/23 "2012-11-28T20:51:07Z")
I’m wasn’t trying to state that punishment is the best deterrent, and yes I have heard of such statistics that education and rehabilitation are very helpful in lowering the number of repeat offenders. What I was trying to say is that this particular prison’s punishment techniques aren’t so harsh, and at least the prison is efficient, but other prisons are much worse, as I said before. Also, it doesn’t just take education and rehabilitation, it takes the perfect balance of rehabilitation and punishment especially for prisons located in highly gang populated regions. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/24 "2012-11-28T20:55:47Z")
> [@Batfish](#): > > So what’s the recidivism rate of Maricopa County versus other Arizona counties? Or the country at large? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Arpaio is correct. If more of our jails were run this way we’d have a lower rate of recidivism. We’d be spending less tax money too. Win. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to be the case he reduces recidivism. Between that and the lawsuits for injuries/death suffered by his inmates, he might be spending way _more_ tax money for the same results as before. But it is hard to measure. Arpaio himself commissioned a study back in '98 (which is, to be fair, a while ago) to study it, and it showed his policies had [no effect](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=8SkFHEBeEqkC&dq=griffin+%22The+Use+of+Force+by+Detention+Officers,&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=r5ynnnX_AH&sig=sfEbQmqP7XWW4f5BJ3BML8usKVQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q=recidivism&f=false) (check pg 41) vs his predecessor. Of course, Arpaio has repudiated the results of the study he commissioned and apparently doesn’t know the actual current rate ([link](http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0803/S00144.htm)). The total number of inmates is also increasing, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either, since the population of Maricopa county has exploded over the last 20 years. The color of the underwear was immaterial. The fact that it’s part of his ongoing efforts to unnecessarily demean inmates without producing any unambiguously measurable results at reducing recidivism or the crime rate and at ever increasing taxpayer expense IS material. > [@cleveland024](#): > > What I was trying to say is that this particular prison’s punishment techniques aren’t so harsh Again, NOT a prison. A JAIL. The inmates are (1) awaiting trial, (2) awaiting transfer to a prison, or (3) serving sentences for misdemeanors. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/25 "2012-11-28T20:56:37Z")
> [@campp](#): > > Not everyone in the jail has been found guilty, necessarily. Some are being help pending trial. > > Also, did she make any mention of the inmates that have been killed in captivity, or anything about the millions this pompous dick is costing the county in wrongful death and other lawsuits? > > And he has not been elected _fourteen_ times. > ETA: Ravenman was mere seconds ahead of me! Not to mention his attention-getting, and doubtless expensive stunts like his ‘investigation’ into Obama’s birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/26 "2012-11-28T21:17:50Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Is this substantiated by any statistics coming out of Arpaio’s district? Hard to say, no doubt Arpaio and his defenders have some statistics to cherry-pick somewhere that support the idea that his methods are effective. It’s doubtful, though. [This link](http://washingtonindependent.com/91520/violent-crime-is-down-in-arizona-up-in-sheriff-joe-arpaios-county) is not entirely fair (fairness in the pit?!?), but it’s certainly dramatic. It shows rates of violent crime in Arizona over the period of 2002 to 2010. All of Arizona’s major cities experienced a drop in major crimes over that period, as did the state as a whole. However, in Sheriff Joe’s part of Maricopa County, violent crimes are up 58%. It’s slightly unfair in that there are no apples to apples comparisons between the type of outlying unincorporated area that he covers and other similar areas in the state (if there even are any). But it’s hard to imagine there being any evidence here that he has helped. And he’s a sadistic bastard anyway, with fucked up priorities as a sheriff and as a human being – I’ve seen mention of some tens of thousands of raped and assaults going uninvestigated, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/27 "2012-11-28T21:29:42Z")
Provided the prisoners have no health problems exacerbated by heat, access to plenty of water and adequate shade then I have no objection to a tent city jail in Arizona. Nor do I particularly care about inmates being forced to wear pink underwear. It’s the civil rights violations (bad food, targeting brown people, etc., etc.) that I’m worried about. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/28 "2012-11-28T21:30:37Z")
I don’t give a rat’s ass about the pink. Prisoners? Well, maybe he’s a little bit harsh. But the fact that he’s a racist bastard that wipes his ass with his oath to the Constitution every day-\*\* THAT \*\*I got a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/29 "2012-11-28T21:42:26Z")
:smack: Apologies; I completely glazed over the part that this is about a jail, as opposed to a prison. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/30 "2012-11-28T22:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > He also bought the Newt Gingrich lecture series on US history that he pipes into the jails. That’s cruel and unusual punishment right there. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/31 "2012-11-28T22:12:21Z")
Yabbut if he only plays it at inmates who are _awaiting trial_, it doesn’t count as “punishment,” just cruel and unusual “treatment.” And the Eighth Amendment don’t say _nuttin’_ about cruel and unusual “treatment.” Maybe I better go check on that, now that I bring it up. [Nope, I’m good.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) _Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted._ ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/32 "2012-11-28T22:13:22Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > But it is hard to measure. Arpaio himself commissioned a study back in '98 (which is, to be fair, a while ago) to study it, and it showed his policies had [no effect](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=8SkFHEBeEqkC&dq=griffin+%22The+Use+of+Force+by+Detention+Officers,&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=r5ynnnX_AH&sig=sfEbQmqP7XWW4f5BJ3BML8usKVQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q=recidivism&f=false) (check pg 41) vs his predecessor. Of course, Arpaio has repudiated the results of the study he commissioned and apparently doesn’t know the actual current rate ([link](http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0803/S00144.htm)). Well, to be fair, that study comprised a study of prisoners released between twenty-three and seventeen years ago. I don’t know how relevant it is considering the changes he’s made since then, which some would consider having made things even worse but others would consider having made things better and more effective. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The total number of inmates is also increasing, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either, since the population of Maricopa county has exploded over the last 20 years. And not only has the population exploded, but so have population segments in which drug and gang activity are more prevalent. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The color of the underwear was immaterial. The fact that it’s part of his ongoing efforts to unnecessarily demean inmates without producing any unambiguously measurable results at reducing recidivism or the crime rate and at ever increasing taxpayer expense IS material. Oh, I don’t know. Embarrassing and demeaning people is a time honored way of trying to get people to change their thinking and behavior. Look at the way the political parties portray each others’ supporters. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/33 "2012-11-28T22:40:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The pink underwear was started to keep the men from leaving the jail with the issued underwear on. That, if true, would be the sorriest, silliest, lamest cost-saving measure ever. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/34 "2012-11-28T22:50:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. Embarrassing and demeaning people is a time honored way of trying to get people to change their thinking and behavior. Look at the way the political parties portray each others’ supporters. 😉 Apparently not. At best, he’s not doing actively worse at his job than average. He still can’t produce numbers showing he’s reducing recidivism or the crime rate. And **Normal Phase** ’s link indicates he might actually be doing a _worse_ job than average. The implications that his department has outright ignored several sexual assault cases is troubling, at best, and an outright breach of law and his constituent’s trust at worst. And I know it’s a joke, but has any political party’s portrayal of their political opponents actually changed the way those opponents thought? If the last general election was any guide, it merely made everybody further entrench. So, the good citizens of Maricopa county are paying through the nose for a sheriff whose measures don’t appear to do much good and may actually be exacerbating exactly the situation he’s claiming to fix. And he’s an asshole to boot. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/35 "2012-11-28T22:51:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That, if true, would be the sorriest, silliest, lamest cost-saving measure ever. What’s wrong with it? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/36 "2012-11-28T22:52:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Good friend, moved to Arizona a few years ago. Female, highly paid exec in the health care business. Got picked up DUI coming home from a party one night, got to spend a month on work release in Sheriff Joe’s tent city. Came to visit over Thanksgiving. We went to dinner at an Italian spot four blocks from where I live and I drove her rental car home because she was too scared to drive after having had one glass of wine. This woman has been a gregarious and confident drinker and driver all her life and wouldn’t listen to anyone who tried to get her not to drive after she’d been drinking. Now she won’t drive after one little glass of restaurant wine, and in a state not Arizona to boot. Oh please. I’ve got a friend that did the exact same thing - and she got nothing worse for her DUI than a fine and driving school. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/37 "2012-11-28T23:01:27Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > If we get a Pit thread about every stupid thing everyone reads on Facebook (which we seem to be getting from you) the Pit will get very busy. And stupid. I’ve posted two Pit Threads. There is no flood of threads from me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/38 "2012-11-28T23:05:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What’s wrong with it? To start with, even being concerned at all over the county losing the cost of one pair of underwear when an inmate is released. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/39 "2012-11-28T23:06:07Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And stupid. The Home of the Never Ending Joe Paterno/Sandusky thread isn’t ALREADY stupid? For fuck’s sake, y’all have some high standards for stupidity around here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398/40 "2012-11-28T23:10:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s keep in mind that most of the inmates are pre-trial detainees who have not been found guilty of a crime. > > Also, you know all that money he’s saving by providing meals that cost 20 cents? Maybe all the savings are being used to fund court-ordered damages to former inmates: through 2009, there were $43 million in judgments against the sheriffs office. > > “Joe Arpaio: he makes criminals into millionaires!” My understanding was that Joe doesn’t actually save the state any money by cheaping out on the meals; he gets a fixed amount of money to provide food to the detainees and he (that’s right–he, personally) gets to keep any difference between the cost of the food and the fees paid him. So the $0.20 meals aren’t cost-savings, they’re graft. Also, he gets to keep that money even if the state loses the resulting lawsuit. So Joe has socialized his risk! He’s a socialist! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaio/642398.md?page=3)