# Joe Arpaio's trial starts today **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923 "2017-06-26T16:08:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/181 "2017-08-31T21:56:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From the similarly themed GD thread: He wants his “get out of jail free” card. So sad, so unfair, the big bad ass lawman can’t handle obeying the law and accepting its consequences, even when the consequences have basically already been waved away. He’s not a tough guy hard ass, he’s a pussy and a bully. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/182 "2017-08-31T22:49:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say it’s evident from the way exiting rules work. Even the President’s supposed pardon cannot insulate the witness from the requirement to testify: remember that a pardon cannot excuse future offenses. And remember that the judge doesn’t send the recalcitrant witness to jail to punish him, but to compel his testimony. He has the keys to his own cell, as the saying goes. > > So even if the President purported to “pardon,” the extant “offense,” that merely places the witness back in the position of refusing to testify and subject to the identical sanction by the court. I think the case that’s still controlling on this is Ex Parte Grossman. Brief summary for those who don’t know: Philip Grossman had sold liquor, in violation of Prohibition. The government asked for, and got a temporary injunction from a District Court, prohibiting him from selling liquor. He sold liquor, and was arrested for violating the restraining order, convicted of criminal contempt, and sentenced him to a year in prison and a $1000 fine. President Coolidge commuted the sentence to just the fine. Regardless, Grossman was sent to prison. He filed a writ of habeus corpus. The case went up to the Supreme Court, where the government argued that contempt isn’t an “offense against the United States”, it’s an “offense against the court”, and outside the pardon power. Chief Justice Taft wrote the majority decision. The court ruled for Grossman. They said that a conviction for contempt was a criminal conviction like any other one, and that the Constitution didn’t put a limit on the pardoning power in regards to contempts. However, the court also pointed out: > [@](#): > > A pardon can only be granted for a contempt fully completed. Neither in this country nor in England can it interfere with the use of coercive measures to enforce a suitor’s right. Which suggests that the President can’t pardon for an ongoing contempt, although, of course, the line focuses on the power of contempt to enforce decisions in civil suits. The Chief Justice also gives the following reminder: > [@](#): > > If it be said that the President, by successive pardons of constantly recurring contempts in particular litigation, might deprive a court of power to enforce its orders in a recalcitrant neighborhood, it is enough to observe that such a course is so improbable as to furnish but little basis for argument. Exceptional cases like this, if to be imagined at all, would suggest a resort to impeachment, rather than to a narrow and strained construction of the general powers of the President. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/183 "2017-08-31T23:37:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There goes his job prospects at McDonalds. Some of it, of course, is just his all-around shitheadedness, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this has implications for his government-job pension. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/184 "2017-09-01T01:51:55Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He wants his “get out of jail free” card. So sad, so unfair, the big bad ass lawman can’t handle obeying the law and accepting its consequences, even when the consequences have basically already been waved away. > > He’s not a tough guy hard ass, he’s a pussy and a bully. My guess is he’s on the shortlist for another government job, but won’t be eligible to serve with a federal conviction on his record. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/185 "2017-10-22T02:10:53Z")
Judge refuses to clear his record: > **[Judge rejects motion to clear former Sheriff Joe Arpaio's conviction | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/us/sheriff-joe-arpaio-dismissal-denied/index.html)** > > A federal judge on Thursday rejected Joe Arpaio's request to erase a criminal contempt conviction from his record, saying a presidential pardon of the former sheriff didn't change the facts of the case. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/186 "2017-10-22T02:54:20Z")
I think it’s highly likely that Arpaio will die before his appeals are exhausted and thus have his conviction vacated _a la_ Ken Lay, Aaron Hernandez, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/187 "2017-10-22T12:08:48Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Judge refuses to clear his record: > [http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/us/sheriff-joe-arpaio-dismissal-denied/index.html](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/us/sheriff-joe-arpaio-dismissal-denied/index.html) Hurrah for Judge Bolton, although the image of Sheriff Joke and Donny Two-scoops standing together made me throw up in my mouth a little. Even if he hadn’t been pardoned, his term in jail would have only been about six months, so karma doesn’t always come off. In other news, Arpaio’s infamous tent city is being [dismantled](http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/10/09/maricopa-countys-tent-city-jail-officially-shut-down/748348001/). It seems, that has been true for the past several years, the jail population _could_ have been housed within the existing jail buildings\* and the outdoor facility was costing the county taxpayers $5-million a year. That’s a lot of green baloney sandwiches. \*The Durango Street facility stood vacant for almost all of Arpaio’s tenure so he could put 'em in tent city instead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/188 "2017-10-22T23:05:00Z")
You’d think this guy would take a hint and realize he’s lucky to get a pardon. Dude, you’re 85, just go and enjoy retirement. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/189 "2017-10-27T20:19:29Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Judge refuses to clear his record: > [http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/us/sheriff-joe-arpaio-dismissal-denied/index.html](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/us/sheriff-joe-arpaio-dismissal-denied/index.html) Good. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/190 "2018-04-17T21:11:02Z")
So this is kind of interesting. After Arpaio’s request to vacate his conviction was upheld, as described above, Arpaio appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit. The District Court requested that the DoJ assist in defending against the appeal and they - Trump-sucking-shit-weasels that they are - they refused. > **[DOJ Will Fight Court Ruling, Support Arpaio In Wiping Conviction From Record](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/doj-fight-ruling-support-arpaio-wiping-conviction)** > > The Department of Justice is backing former Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio in his effort to appeal a district court’s decision to keep his contempt of court conviction on his criminal record… > [@TPM link #1](#): > > Arpaio appealed the October ruling and the district court in Arizona requested the support of the DOJ, according to the court documents. In a statement to the U.S. appeals court, Acting Assistant Attorney General John Cronan said the DOJ doesn’t intend to defend the court’s order. > > “The government intends to argue, as it did in the district court, that the motion to vacate should have been granted,” Cronan wrote. After that, a non-profit group, [Protect Democracy](https://protectdemocracy.org/) stepped in. They filed a petition with the 9th Circuit to appoint a private attorney to argue for upholding the ruling that Arpaio’s conviction should not be vacated. The request was granted today. You can read the ruling granting the request at this link - Rule 42 is available here and it says: > **[Rule 42. Criminal Contempt](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_42)** > [@Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure Rule 42](#): > > Rule 42. Criminal Contempt > (a) Disposition After Notice. Any person who commits criminal contempt may be punished for that contempt after prosecution on notice. > > (1) Notice. The court must give the person notice in open court, in an order to show cause, or in an arrest order. The notice must: > > (A) state the time and place of the trial; > > (B) allow the defendant a reasonable time to prepare a defense; and > > (C) state the essential facts constituting the charged criminal contempt and describe it as such. > > **(2) Appointing a Prosecutor. The court must request that the contempt be prosecuted by an attorney for the government, unless the interest of justice requires the appointment of another attorney. If the government declines the request, the court must appoint another attorney to prosecute the contempt.** > > (3) Trial and Disposition. A person being prosecuted for criminal contempt is entitled to a jury trial in any case in which federal law so provides and must be released or detained as Rule 46 provides. If the criminal contempt involves disrespect toward or criticism of a judge, that judge is disqualified from presiding at the contempt trial or hearing unless the defendant consents. Upon a finding or verdict of guilty, the court must impose the punishment. > > (b) Summary Disposition. Notwithstanding any other provision of these rules, the court (other than a magistrate judge) may summarily punish a person who commits criminal contempt in its presence if the judge saw or heard the contemptuous conduct and so certifies; a magistrate judge may summarily punish a person as provided in 28 U.S.C. §636(e). The contempt order must recite the facts, be signed by the judge, and be filed with the clerk. (bolding mine) I have to say it sounds like a bit of a stretch, since this specifically references prosecuting the trial for contempt, not an appeal of the conviction. The dissenting judge in the appointment makes an argument to that effect. But the main argument that went ahead with the appointment has their citations in order to support the notion that the court which will decide the appeal is entitled to be fully briefed on the governement’s case, even if the governement doesn’t want to make it in person. This will undoubtedly be appealed in its turn. I did have to giggle a bit because the dissenting judge repeatedly argued that the special prosecutor was unnecessary, even though the governement wasn’t providing support, because the case law is so clear that a Presidential Pardon doesn’t wipe out or expunge the crime of the pardonee - which is precisely the point that Arpaio is trying to get around (if he even understands it, which is doubtful.) So the beat goes on. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/191 "2018-04-17T21:34:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Why don’t they ever call me for jury duty for these cases? > > Oh well, I’d never survive voir dire anyway. Because you’d be out for blood (just like me). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/192 "2018-04-17T22:27:30Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Because you’d be out for blood (just like me). I hate that fucker Arpaio. And anyone that voted for him. And anyone that likes him. Anyone that _looks_ like him. Stupid fucker. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/193 "2018-04-18T07:57:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Because you’d be out for blood (just like me). “You, there, with the red face. You’re excused!” “But, your honor–” “–I said _excused!_” “Awww, man…” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/194 "2018-04-18T20:08:00Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > “You, there, with the red face. You’re excused!” > “But, your honor–” > “–I said _excused!_” > “Awww, man…” When you are wearing the **Punisher** shirt, want do you expect? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/195 "2018-04-23T14:36:05Z")
Does Arpaio’s record create any issues for his Senate campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/196 "2018-04-23T15:51:11Z")
> [@lel](#): > > Does Arpaio’s record create any issues for his Senate campaign? No legal issues. The political fallout … I dunno. I’m having difficulty imagining a voter who would have voted for Arpaio before his conviction but is dissuaded now. In other words, Arpaio’s WHOLE record creates issues, but in my opinion the conviction doesn’t tip any scales. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/197 "2018-04-23T19:54:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No legal issues. > > The political fallout … I dunno. I’m having difficulty imagining a voter who would have voted for Arpaio before his conviction but is dissuaded now. In other words, Arpaio’s WHOLE record creates issues, but in my opinion the conviction doesn’t tip any scales. His entire career creates issues, but unfortunately a lot of people don’t care about that. They seem to love authoritarian dictatorial racist assholes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/198 "2018-04-23T20:57:29Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > His entire career creates issues, but unfortunately a lot of people don’t care about that. They seem to love authoritarian dictatorial racist assholes. Up to a point, besides finally noticing how authoritarian, dictatorial and racist he was, he was voted out when a significant number of his supporters finally noticed that he was bad for business, not only for the government business (as with the state losing so much money defending the cad), but for private ones as well (as in business deciding to not open in Arizona due to the racial profiler and the bigoted laws). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/199 "2018-04-24T22:48:13Z")
Yet a large fraction of his base were creaming their shorts when he dangled a run at governor in front of them, the fools. I keep touring Fountain Hills in hopes of catching him in a crosswalk and having my foot slip off the brake. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923/200 "2018-05-06T04:51:28Z")
I don’t want him to die, I just want him to retire once and for all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-arpaios-trial-starts-today/789923.md?page=11)