# Joe Biden is wrong. Betsy DeVos is right. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 8, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382 "2020-05-08T04:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/1 "2020-05-08T04:51:58Z")
[https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/06/biden-vows-a-quick-end-to-devos-sexual-misconduct-rule-241715](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/06/biden-vows-a-quick-end-to-devos-sexual-misconduct-rule-241715) > [@](#): > > Former Vice President Joe Biden said Wednesday that the Trump administration’s new rule on sexual misconduct in schools aims to “shame and silence survivors,” and vowed to put a “quick end” to it if he becomes the next president.[…] > > “Before Tara Reade’s assault accusations, Biden was unwavering in a presumption of guilt for the accused including Brett Kavanaugh," said Erin Perrine, the Trump Campaign’s principal deputy communications director, in response to Biden’s statement. > > “That presumption of guilt included the disastrous Title IX regulations under the Obama-Biden administration, making it more difficult on college campuses for the accused to receive a fair hearing and their due process rights,” she continued. "Does Joe still stand by his presumption of guilt for the accused—or has he set a new standard for himself in the face of his own sexual assault accusations from a former staffer?” Perrine has him dead to rights here. That Biden could take this stance, at the very moment he is getting his reputation dragged through the mud by an extremely dubious accusation, is just…:smack: If my support for Biden this fall helps bring about a return of the Obama-era rules next year, it will be a most unfortunate side effect indeed; and if Trump wins, this will be the one silver lining I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/2 "2020-05-08T13:46:25Z")
Considering that colleges and universities have spent a lot of money when sued by men who were accused and disciplined without due process, I’d think schools would prefer an evidence-based system. [https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-students-win-recent-lawsuits-against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-students-win-recent-lawsuits-against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault) [https://www.chronicle.com/article/Lawsuits-From-Students-Accused/240905](https://www.chronicle.com/article/Lawsuits-From-Students-Accused/240905) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/3 "2020-05-09T01:03:06Z")
Yeah, I’ve been reading others saying universities are not eager to go back for just this reason. So hopefully if/when Biden wins, they will make some cosmetic changes so they can say they didn’t leave these regulations in place, but won’t actually go back to the Obama policy. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/4 "2020-05-09T01:22:16Z")
I, for one, am shocked to see the OP agreeing once again with the Trump administration. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/5 "2020-05-09T01:27:16Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I, for one, am shocked to see the OP agreeing once again with the Trump administration. Yeah, isn’t he a Democrat? Weird. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/6 "2020-05-09T01:50:38Z")
“Once again”? Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/7 "2020-05-09T02:16:09Z")
While we’re all waiting (most likely in vain) for those cites, some evidence that being an independent thinker who does not toe the party line on every point does not make me anything remotely resembling a Trump supporter: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=873888](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=873888) > [@](#): > > **Planning for a post-Trump era** > > Obviously we don’t want to take our eye off the ball, but it’s worthwhile to look more than two years ahead periodically. We have to make sure we keep the GOP pinned to the mat after their shit-flinging monkey is gone.[…] > > Leaving aside the demographics, the question is whether we’ll let them get away with only a quick time-out and rebranding. Will we fritter away our advantage by 2024, with some fresh new GOP face pushing the same old “afflicting the afflicted and comforting the comfortable” policies? Which, even without the repulsive freak show dynamic, is still bad for America and the world, after all–even if it will probably not seem so bad by comparison to Trump (hence the danger). > > It remains to be seen how skillful Democrats will be (unlike how feckless they were after Nixon) in really pinning the GOP to Trump as a legacy, one which will be increasingly toxic. “Grandpa, how could you support…Trump?” :eek: We should mercilessly tar anyone who was on camera, palling around with him at one of his fascist rallies. Speaking of those fascist rallies, this was my prediction for what he’ll do in the transition period and on Jan. 20, 2021 if and when he loses in November: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=877271](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=877271) > [@](#): > > Even if he does not officially resign, I think he will leave DC and not even bother to pretend to do his job any more. I would be surprised if he ever came back to the city at any point after the holidays. But even if he is in the White House on the morning of January 20, he will not go to the inaugural. Either he’ll make a show of boycotting it because he claims the election was rigged by “illegals”, perhaps even resisting leaving (the U.S. Marshals will take care of that contingency at the stroke of noon, of that I am confident), or he will just tweet something nasty about the President-Elect and go to the rally he scheduled at noon and demanded FOX News cover instead of the inaugural of “Sleepy Joe” or whichever other “loser” is being sworn in by the Chief Justice. If you read these posts for comprehension, you recognize that this is not just pro forma opposition to Trump. Which means you should well understand why I’m offended by the suggestion that I support Trump or his clown carnival, other than in the occasional “broken clock” moment like this. What this is more about is that Biden could be on the right side of this one (“I don’t agree with all the details of this policy change, but it is clear the old policy did require some adjustments”), and he is instead doubling down, much to my chagrin. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/8 "2020-05-09T02:30:20Z")
The OP doth protest too much, methinks. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/9 "2020-05-09T02:38:11Z")
Right! It’s such a clever, deep-cover play, for me to repeatedly blast Trump and other Republicans in absolutely scathing terms, all so I can very occasionally make mild murmurs of support for something they do 2% of the time. Ingenious! :rolleyes: (Still waiting for that cite on “once again”: 2% of the time might even be too generous.) ETA: Not to mention that in the OP, my whole frustration with Biden is that he’s taking this stance despite my believing the allegations against him are “extremely dubious”, on which point I have been 100% consistent from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/10 "2020-05-09T02:57:31Z")
I had hoped this would sink, because it’s a bad OP. You provided no actual argument for what’s wrong with the Obama-Biden rules. You seem to just assume that everyone will disagree with them, which makes no sense given the stated views on this board. You also posted in IMHO when you know this is a very divisive topic, as if you wanted to avoid debate. As far as I can tell, the rules enacted are just that sexual assault accusations are taken seriously and properly investigated, while DeVos’s rules just seem to be “let’s go back to when people would get away with sexual assault.” So, without further argument, you just appear to be saying that you think that rape is less important than the rare false accusation (which you have admitted are rarer than actual rapes). And, unfortunately, that fits very well with your previous posts on this subject. And it is not remotely the only thing you’ve argued that agrees with Trump–you seem to side with him on most social justice issues. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/11 "2020-05-09T03:04:28Z")
There’s no actual argument in the OP, nor in his link. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/12 "2020-05-09T12:43:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If my support for Biden this fall helps bring about a return of the Obama-era rules next year, it will be a most unfortunate side effect indeed; and if Trump wins, this will be the one silver lining I can think of. It would be a shame to turn back the clock to the Obama-era days of no crippling economic meltdown and lack of dangerously mismanaged pandemics. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/13 "2020-05-09T16:36:41Z")
“My God…! Tan Suits!? In government…? Are you Mad…?” /s ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/14 "2020-05-09T17:05:39Z")
“My God…! Tan Suits!? In government…? Are you Mad…?” /s ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/15 "2020-05-09T23:00:10Z")
Does anyone happen to have an actual summary or concise explanation of what the guidelines - both the Obama era ones, and DeVos’s newer ones - actually say? I’ve seen a half dozen opinion pieces on this, and they’re pretty vague about the actual details, so it’s hard to form a solid opinion that’s reasonably rooted in facts. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/16 "2020-05-09T23:22:43Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > Does anyone happen to have an actual summary or concise explanation of what the guidelines - both the Obama era ones, and DeVos’s newer ones - actually say? \*"Under the new regulations, after a student reports an assault or a harassment incident covered by Title IX, the school must tell the students involved and their parents in writing about the allegations and the evidence that is gathered. The school must also give the accused person at least 10 days to respond. If the school decides to punish a student for a sexual assault allegation, it must tell the victim in writing, something many schools had previously resisted doing. Schools will have to keep written records of actions taken in response to sexual misconduct reports for at least seven years under the regulations. In another change, the person who investigates a sexual assault case under Title IX cannot be the same person who decides whether the accused student is responsible — which means schools may need to hire or train additional staff… The final Title IX regulations removed some of the most controversial measures at the K-12 level and will not require live hearings in student discipline cases for sexual assault (this was part of the previous DeVos proposal)… The regulations also clarify when K-12 schools are required to investigate students’ claims. Schools must investigate whenever any district employee — from teachers and guidance counselors to bus drivers — learns of a sexual assault or harassment incident, whether a student, a parent or a bystander reports it. Schools will be required to investigate cases that happen on campus or as part of school activities like field trips, athletic events or conferences… The regulations also require schools to use a narrower definition of sexual harassment than is used in employment sex discrimination laws. Sexual harassment under the new Title IX regulations is unwelcome conduct that “a reasonable person” would consider “so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it effectively denies a person equal access” to an education. The Education Department told NBC News that it decided to use a narrower definition partly to allow for speech protected by the First Amendment. Victims rights advocates criticized the definition, which they said would require students to endure more harassment before schools could take action."\* > **[Betsy DeVos makes big changes to sexual assault investigations in K-12 schools](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/betsy-devos-new-title-ix-rules-will-shake-how-k-n1201616)** > > The overhaul of campus sexual assault regulations will ramp up the paperwork schools must do to comply with Title IX. Still a mess in my opinion, requiring relatively untrained staff subject to political/alumni pressures to conduct investigations and make decisions which are far better left to law enforcement professionals and the courts. Mandate referral of all such complaints to agencies accustomed to investigative work and provide the funds needed to ramp up staff to handle them. ---
**Author:** ![alison1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@alison1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alison1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/17 "2020-05-09T23:27:18Z")
very good to entertain you in this time of quarantine [123movies](http://keypoint.s201.xrea.com/?p=253#comment-113553) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/18 "2020-05-10T00:11:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If my support for Biden this fall helps bring about a return of the Obama-era rules next year, it will be a most unfortunate side effect indeed; and if Trump wins, this will be the one silver lining I can think of. And so. The mask slips off. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/19 "2020-05-10T00:18:43Z")
Having actually adjudicated a sexual misconduct case between students at a college, I can say with certainty that Betsy DeVos - as usual – is full of shit. The accused had the same treatment he would have had anywhere else. He was allowed to have a lawyer and we read carefully the statements made by both sides carefully. In some ways, it was better for justice than a jury trial, since we could make notes and review the statements side by side. Ultimately, we disbelieved the charge and recommended no action was taken. The whole exercise by DeVos is to intimidate women to keep them from reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382/20 "2020-05-10T00:43:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*"Under the new regulations, after a student reports an assault or a harassment incident covered by Title IX, the school must tell the students involved and their parents in writing about the allegations and the evidence that is gathered. The school must also give the accused person at least 10 days to respond. If the school decides to punish a student for a sexual assault allegation, it must tell the victim in writing, something many schools had previously resisted doing. > > Schools will have to keep written records of actions taken in response to sexual misconduct reports for at least seven years under the regulations. > In another change, the person who investigates a sexual assault case under Title IX cannot be the same person who decides whether the accused student is responsible — which means schools may need to hire or train additional staff… > The final Title IX regulations removed some of the most controversial measures at the K-12 level and will not require live hearings in student discipline cases for sexual assault (this was part of the previous DeVos proposal)… > The regulations also clarify when K-12 schools are required to investigate students’ claims. Schools must investigate whenever any district employee — from teachers and guidance counselors to bus drivers — learns of a sexual assault or harassment incident, whether a student, a parent or a bystander reports it. Schools will be required to investigate cases that happen on campus or as part of school activities like field trips, athletic events or conferences… > The regulations also require schools to use a narrower definition of sexual harassment than is used in employment sex discrimination laws. Sexual harassment under the new Title IX regulations is unwelcome conduct that “a reasonable person” would consider “so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it effectively denies a person equal access” to an education. > > The Education Department told NBC News that it decided to use a narrower definition partly to allow for speech protected by the First Amendment. Victims rights advocates criticized the definition, which they said would require students to endure more harassment before schools could take action."\* > > [Betsy DeVos' new Title IX rules will shake up how K-12 schools handle sexual harassment](http://nbcnews.com/news/education/betsy-devos-new-title-ix-rules-will-shake-how-k-n1201616) > > Still a mess in my opinion, requiring relatively untrained staff subject to political/alumni pressures to conduct investigations and make decisions which are far better left to law enforcement professionals and the courts. Mandate referral of all such complaints to agencies accustomed to investigative work and provide the funds needed to ramp up staff to handle them. Most of that sounds…good. I mean, the part of it that sounds potentially bad is using a narrower definition for sexual harassment, but I’d have to see what it’s been narrowed **from** before saying I think that narrowing is definitely bad, although on the face of it it’s probable that it is. I like almost every one of those other requirements, especially requiring people to be informed in writing about all the details, and I mostly think it’s a good idea for the person making the decision as to whether something actionable happened to be different from the person conducting the investigation. Better to have the investigator present all the evidence to another party rather than be directly influenced by the involved parties. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-is-wrong-betsy-devos-is-right/853382.md?page=2)