# Joe Biden runs for president. How screwed is Hillary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899 "2015-08-03T17:48:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/81 "2015-08-04T22:13:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Clinton cannot win unless the Republicans nominate someone totally unacceptable. Lucky for us absolutely anyone on the other side is totally unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/82 "2015-08-04T22:42:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > YOu should call all the liberal op-ed writers then, because even they admit she’s her own worst enemy. Which op-ed writers would you describe as ‘liberal’? Because on the op-ed pages these days, I see a fair number of conservatives and a bunch of centrists, but only a few liberals. (No, Tom Friedman and Maureen Dowd at the NYT aren’t liberals. Nor are Richard Cohen or Ruth Marcus at the WaPo.) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/83 "2015-08-04T22:49:27Z")
Its obvious: people who want the Dems to lose, like Rupert Murdoch, want Biden as the Dem nominee. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/84 "2015-08-05T09:33:34Z")
That’s an understandable conclusion to draw, but mistaken. It’s important to not assume that your political enemies think the same way you do. Believe it or not, honesty actually is something we care about in our candidates. Democrats seem to think dishonesty is okay, as long as they believe they are in on the subterfuge. We want Biden to be the nominee not because he’s easier to beat than Clinton, but because he’s honest and not ideologically extreme. Please, if we just wanted someone easy to beat we’d be touting Sanders. He’s just as honest as Biden but far less electable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/85 "2015-08-05T09:40:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Democrats seem to think dishonesty is okay, as long as they believe they are in on the subterfuge. Why do you repeat this kind of crap? What’s the point? Please don’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/86 "2015-08-05T09:46:43Z")
To quote yourself, “Obama pretended to be against gay marriage, and gays pretended to believe him.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/87 "2015-08-05T10:06:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > To quote yourself, “Obama pretended to be against gay marriage, and gays pretended to believe him.” Cite that I said this? And what does this have to do with the sweeping claim you made about people who tend to vote Democratic? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/88 "2015-08-05T10:09:21Z")
I never claimed it was all Democrats, only that Democrats don’t have a problem with lying as long as they are in on it. Most Democratic voters probably aren’t even aware of the various controversies. MAny will vote for Clinton just because they’ve heard of her and liked her husband. But those who know she’s a liar and vote for her are the ones I’m talking about now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/89 "2015-08-05T10:14:36Z")
You made a claim about me specifically. Where is the cite? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/90 "2015-08-05T10:22:07Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=748859&highlight=pretended](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=748859&highlight=pretended) Some of the juicy quotes fro the thread, from people besides you: > [@](#): > > I wanted him to win, he’s a good man and capable leader. If he has to lie to the right wing to make himself more palatable, so be it. See, Yogosouth wasn’t lied to, the right wing was lied to. Another poster was disappointed, but not because he lied: > [@](#): > > I’m not disappointed that he lied. I’m disappointed that he chose to follow rather than lead public opinion on the issue. More support of lying to OTHER people: > [@](#): > > That’s what a leader does after getting elected. To be in that position does require a fair amount of pandering to the massive number of low-information voters, and which is something less-naive voters recognize and accept. > [@](#): > > I am not surprised in the least that Obama lied about this issue. I presumed he was always for Gay marriage but hid it for political expediency. He finally expressed his real feelings on the subject, yes, conveniently. I look at it as a shrewd move and am not disappointed at all. We’ve also got liberal posters in that thread believing that Obama is also a closet atheist and one saying he must hate to wear that flag pin. There are many cases where “both parties do it”. This is not one of them. if a Republican says he supports a path to citizenship, he’s taken as supporting a path to citizenship and LOSES support for saying that. You don’t see Republican voters going, “Oh, he just has to say that.” Here’s an outside SDMB example, from Alison Lundergan Grimes campaign. A liberal voter expresses concerns about her pro-coal stance, and this is the response from a campaign worker: > **[Grimes Staff Caught on Hidden Camera: She's Lying About Support for Coal...](https://freebeacon.com/politics/grimes-staffers-suggest-kentucky-dem-lies-about-coal-support/)** > > 'It's a lying game' > [@](#): > > “She’s saying something positive about coal because she wants to be elected,” said Ros Hines, a staffer in Grimes’ Lexington campaign office. “And in the state of Kentucky, if you are anti-coal, you will not get elected, period, end of conversation.” > > Some Grimes supporters captured in the hidden-camera video likewise suggest that Grimes is lying about her support for the industry in order to get elected. > > “She has to say that,” remarked Juanita Rodriguez of the Warren County Democratic Party. “But you know what? Politics is a game. You do what you have to do to get [elected]. … It’s a lying game unfortunately.” This is simply a part of the culture of those Democratic voters who are high information voters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/91 "2015-08-05T10:37:44Z")
You made a claim about me specifically. Where is the cite that I said this? EDit: I see, I was quoting Dan Savage. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/92 "2015-08-05T10:40:16Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122892&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122892&postcount=3) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/93 "2015-08-05T10:46:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122892&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122892&postcount=3) That was me quoting someone else, but I thank you for actually citing your claim about me for once. As to the assertion about Democrats as a whole, I still think it’s BS. It’s entirely reasonable to view Hillary as more honest than the Republican candidates, and probably consistent with trackers like PolitiFact. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/94 "2015-08-05T10:48:10Z")
Democratic support for both Obama and Hillary, at least in my opinion, has been about policy and winning. And it’s entirely reasonable to value these things most. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/95 "2015-08-05T10:48:49Z")
Politifact doesn’t judge significance, or address every controversial statement. “You can keep your health insurance” counts exactly the same as “75% of federal prisoners are in for non-violent offenses.” It also doesn’t measure honesty, strictly speaking. Since most of the claims they check are politicians citing stats, it says more about their fact checking staff than their personal honesty. And I’m quite certain Clinton has the best paid staff in the race. Also, the most significant claim going on right now for Clinton’s campaign is one that Politifact said they can’t rate: the propriety of her email account: > **[PolitiFact - Hillary Clinton's Truth-O-Meter record](https://www.politifact.com/article/2015/jun/11/hillary-clintons-truth-o-meter-record/)** > > Hillary Clinton formally announced her 2016 presidential campaign with a video in April, and she’s been on the tra BTW, it seems that even on fact checking she’s been pretty weak lately. Hedge fund managers pay less in taxes as a percentage of their income than nurses? Okay. False. And the one about her grandparents, that’s just embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/96 "2015-08-05T10:50:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Politifact doesn’t judge significance, or address every controversial statement. “You can keep your health insurance” counts exactly the same as “75% of federal prisoners are in for non-violent offenses.” > > It also doesn’t measure honesty, strictly speaking. Since most of the claims they check are politicians citing stats, it says more about their fact checking staff than their personal honesty. And I’m quite certain Clinton has the best paid staff in the race. It’s the closest measure we have. There is a narrative that Hillary is less honest than other pols, but that doesn’t make it true. Further, the health insurance claim was mostly true, as I’ve said before - most people could keep their insurance. PolitiFact was wrong to call it “pants on fire”, unless they were doing exactly what you say they don’t and judging significance. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/97 "2015-08-05T10:50:57Z")
Go Sanders! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/98 "2015-08-05T10:56:24Z")
Joe Biden has a really poor record with politifact, but that’s not dishonesty, that’s just him, well, being a lot like me and saying stuff without having his people check first: > **[PolitiFact | Joe Biden](https://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/)** > > PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter. One of Joe’s “Pants on fire” moments is this silly gem: “When one person sneezes, it goes through the whole aircraft.” Somehow I don’t think that’s as significant as Clinton’s “landing under sniper fire” or claiming during the 2008 campaign that Obama was going to bomb Pakistan. And that’s what makes me respect Democrats so little when it comes to Clinton. She doesn’t just lie to beat Republicans, she told some pretty dirty lies to beat Barack Obama. And so many angry Obama fans said that would make them less likely to support her if she ever wanted to run again. She thinks you’re all idiots. And since almost all of you seem to have forgotten, she’s probably right. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/99 "2015-08-05T10:57:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s the closest measure we have. There is a narrative that Hillary is less honest than other pols, but that doesn’t make it true. > > Further, the health insurance claim was mostly true, as I’ve said before - most people could keep their insurance. PolitiFact was wrong to call it “pants on fire”, unless they were doing exactly what you say they don’t and judging significance. It’s not the best we have to judge a candidate’s overall honesty. It’s the best measure we have to judge an individual statement’s accuracy, which is precisely the part you chose to dispute. The best measure we have to judge a candidate’s honesty, since there is no objective way to measure such a thing, is polls asking Americans if they think a candidate is honest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899/100 "2015-08-05T10:58:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, it seems that even on fact checking she’s been pretty weak lately. Hedge fund managers pay less in taxes as a percentage of their income than nurses? Okay. False. And the one about her grandparents, that’s just embarrassing. You skipped all the mostly trues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-biden-runs-for-president-how-screwed-is-hillary/726899.md?page=6)