# Joe Biden's in **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 25, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042 "2019-04-25T16:13:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/581 "2019-06-25T01:25:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … To me Trump and Biden represent two different negotiation schools of thought. > > The Trump school, one that some of the Far Left seems to endorse, is position for the extreme crazy, demonize the other side, and then the other side, theory goes, meets part way as you win and they lose. In reality that does not work so well. > > Biden is more the build relationships and discuss and sell the solution as win win side of the spectrum. Doesn’t always work either. > > I do not endorse the Trump school and in my professional life have found the Biden approach works more commonly. When it comes to the heavy lift of getting enough Ds to stay on board and getting a few Rs to come over I think Biden and his approach has the better chances than anyone else running. He has the most experience with the Party of No and he may be right that post-Trump a few more R senators will see their best self-interest in trying to appear bipartisan. > > I also think, as a practical matter, that that approach is what more voters, _especially_ in the general election, want to vote for. Yes, there are chunks of the voting population—on both the right _and_ the left—who respond eagerly to the politics of resentment. We are the noble and pure; they are the corrupt and evil! Those who prefer considering opponents humans with whom deals should be sought, exist on both left and right, too. These two (plus) horrible years have demonstrated that there _are_ registered Republicans who genuinely believe in the rule of law (instead of the inherent authoritarianism of us-versus-them) --though, sadly, few of them are currently office-holders. Are Us-versus-Them fans on the left more numerous than Make-a-Deal fans on the left? As the field of presidential candidates shrinks, we’ll get a better idea. Even the debates, this week, will be illuminating. We’ll hear the clues in the language of the candidates—and what’s picked up by the social media will tell us what’s resonating. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/582 "2019-06-25T01:50:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > … Even the debates, this week, will be illuminating. We’ll hear the clues in the language of the candidates—and what’s picked up by the social media will tell us what’s resonating. Only copying the portion I disagree with. What gets picked up on social media is nowhere near as good of a barometer of what is resonating overall as many within social media and of the pundit class credit it with. Remember the social media explosion over the Biden’s unwanted too friendly to the person touch? Enough on social media that the thread here was asking if his campaign was over before it began. Actual impact, actual amount it resonated with the voting public? Not so much. Obviously. Right now he has the Make-A-Deal rejection of Us-versus-Them lane pretty much all alone. Booker had I think started out trying to inhabit it as well but Biden sucked all the oxygen out of that space so he is trying, so far without much success, to find another branding message. So long as there are several staying in playing hard the othering populist play he can prevail _even if_ the Us-versus-Them fans are more numerous, as they’ll split them. [And by polling they are not.](https://morningconsult.com/2019/03/06/democratic-voters-would-rather-have-a-leader-who-heals-than-fights/) > [@Morning Consult](#): > > 78% of Democratic voters said they prefer a candidate who can heal the division in the country. > > 15% want someone who will fight back, break the rules and move the country in a different direction. > > When asked to choose between two stances, nearly 4 in 5 Democrats in the latest poll, conducted March 1-3 among 1,993 registered voters, said they felt the party needed to nominate “a candidate who can heal the division in our country by bringing people with different views together to make compromise.” By comparison, 15 percent said they thought Democrats need “a candidate who will fight back and is willing to break the rules to move the country in a different direction.” You wouldn’t think it by reading social media or by listening to most candidates branding messages though. ---
**Author:** ![pjacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@pjacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjacks)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/583 "2019-06-25T01:50:48Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > These two (plus) horrible years have demonstrated that there _are_ registered Republicans who genuinely believe in the rule of law (instead of the inherent authoritarianism of us-versus-them) --though, sadly, few of them are currently office-holders. …in what world? Trump has the highest intraparty approval rating of any president of the modern era, aside from W right after 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/584 "2019-06-25T09:21:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You pretty explicitly said that, so yeah that’s obvious and doesn’t change anything I said. The President doesn’t decide Senate procedure and getting rid of the filibuster will not be decided by a President. And legislation has to be initiated and passed by the House and Senate, but funny how the proposed legislation that a President runs on, usually winds up getting taken up by the Congress. But thank you for reminding us of what your middle school civics textbook says. It’s gonna take time to sell Dem Senators on the notion of killing the filibuster, and it’s going to take a Dem nominee willing to invest time and energy in doing that selling, or it doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/585 "2019-06-25T09:33:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [How Uncle Joe’s mad negotiating skillz gave away the expiration of the Bush tax cuts](https://theintercept.com/2019/06/24/joe-biden-tax-cuts-mitch-mconnell/). > > I remember this from the time (end of 2012), other than the inside stuff of course. All the Dems had to do was let the Bush tax cuts expire, and then they’d be in a position of strength, in a position to offer their own set of tax cuts, focused on the middle class and the poor, but putting the rich pretty much back where they were in 2000. Plenty of outside observers saw this; I can’t take credit for any special insights. > > Unsurprisingly, Harry Reid saw it too: > > And somehow the Democrats blew it again. What happened? > > > [@](#): > > > > McConnell reached out directly to Biden, calling him on the phone and explaining that Reid was refusing to be reasonable. Over the course of the day, McConnell and Biden struck a deal. “Biden gave Republicans everything they wanted in exchange for fixing the fiscal cliff problem,” the GOP operative recalled. > > I wondered at the time how the Dems managed to fuck that one up. Didn’t wonder about it indefinitely, because of course the GOP’s response to the Dems’ caving was to force further fiscal emergencies, like the [debt ceiling crisis in the summer of 2013](https://politics.theonion.com/congress-continues-debate-over-whether-or-not-nation-sh-1819572787). Thank you, **RTFirefly** , for relating that story. I was unaware of it. It does increase my misgivings about Biden. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/586 "2019-06-25T11:19:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [How Uncle Joe’s mad negotiating skillz gave away the expiration of the Bush tax cuts](https://theintercept.com/2019/06/24/joe-biden-tax-cuts-mitch-mconnell/). > > I remember this from the time (end of 2012), other than the inside stuff of course. All the Dems had to do was let the Bush tax cuts expire, and then they’d be in a position of strength, in a position to offer their own set of tax cuts, focused on the middle class and the poor, but putting the rich pretty much back where they were in 2000. Plenty of outside observers saw this; I can’t take credit for any special insights. > > Unsurprisingly, Harry Reid saw it too: > > And somehow the Democrats blew it again. What happened? > > I wondered at the time how the Dems managed to fuck that one up. Didn’t wonder about it indefinitely, because of course the GOP’s response to the Dems’ caving was to force further fiscal emergencies, like the [debt ceiling crisis in the summer of 2013](https://politics.theonion.com/congress-continues-debate-over-whether-or-not-nation-sh-1819572787). Ryan Grim? The same Ryan Grim who arrogantly refused to believe that Trump could win and accused Nate Silver of putting his thumb on the scales to make a an already-decided presidential election more interesting? That Ryan Grim who days later got totally owned and was forced to apologize and admit he had no fucking clue what he was talking about? Ryan Grim has a history of writing left wing rage porn, so color me unimpressed. The backside to that story is that before that, Joe Biden was the outgoing senator who was able to convince Susan Collins and Arlen Specter to break a filibuster so that Barack Obama could get one of his signature pieces of legislation – the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act – done, which by the way is pretty much one of the reasons why we started to recover and why we’ve had 9 years of sustained economic growth. Biden also got Specter (who became disgusted with the politics of intransigence and later became a moderate Democrat) to support the ACA. Look, you can pick Joe Biden’s record as a progressive apart if you wish, but what are other senators going to do to actually persuade other senators and reps to occasionally join them when there’s a tight vote? Moreover, don’t forget that some Democrats come from moderate or even fairly conservative districts. How would Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren deal with that - tell them to leave the party? That probably won’t end well. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/587 "2019-06-25T14:17:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Ryan Grim? The same Ryan Grim who arrogantly refused to believe that Trump could win and accused Nate Silver of putting his thumb on the scales to make a an already-decided presidential election more interesting? That Ryan Grim who days later got totally owned and was forced to apologize and admit he had no fucking clue what he was talking about? Oh, you mean like half the known universe. > [@](#): > > The backside to that story is that before that, Joe Biden was the outgoing senator who was able to convince Susan Collins and Arlen Specter to break a filibuster so that Barack Obama could get one of his signature pieces of legislation – the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act – done Which is the perfect illustration of the limits of Biden’s approach to confronting GOP intransigence. With our economy in free fall, losing 700,000 jobs a month, clearly headed towards the worst cratering of our economy since the 1930s, a cratering that people were already blaming on the Republicans, and would have continued to do so had they blocked any action - he could only barely get the three votes he needed to break the filibuster, and to get Collins’ or Snowe’s vote, I can’t remember which, he needed to cut the already-too-small stimulus by another $100B. In all likelihood, Biden needs to pass legislation in the future, there won’t be a gun pointed at both the GOP’s and the nation’s head. He will hopefully never again have such optimal circumstances for persuading Republicans to go along. > [@](#): > > How would Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren deal with that - tell them to leave the party? Your lack of interest in having a serious debate comes through loud and clear. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/588 "2019-06-25T15:26:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And legislation has to be initiated and passed by the House and Senate, but funny how the proposed legislation that a President runs on, usually winds up getting taken up by the Congress. But thank you for reminding us of what your middle school civics textbook says. > > It’s gonna take time to sell Dem Senators on the notion of killing the filibuster, and it’s going to take a Dem nominee willing to invest time and energy in doing that selling, or it doesn’t happen. I think changing Senate procedure is different than taking up legislation a president ran on. I doubt they’ll be anywhere near as cooperative nor will they think many voters were voting on that campaign promise. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/589 "2019-06-25T15:58:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thank you, **RTFirefly** , for relating that story. I was unaware of it. It does increase my misgivings about Biden. You’re welcome! I’m thinking about what might be reasonable criteria to demonstrate Biden’s negotiating skills. The legislation would have to be legislation that Democrats wanted more badly than Republicans, that liberals wanted more badly than conservatives or segregationist Dixiecrats. Because it’s easy to negotiate with the other side to give them what they want more than you do. So anti-busing legislation wouldn’t count. Nor would tough-on-crime legislation. I agree with **asahi** that the ARRA counts. But to rephrase what I’ve already said, ARRA came up under the worst imaginable circumstances for Republicans to say ‘no’, but all but three of them did exactly that, despite Biden’s amazing skills at persuasion. So IMHO, three is probably about the maximum number of Republicans that can be persuaded by Biden under ideal circumstances. Maybe four, by some fluke. But five is right out - and if we still have the filibuster, Biden’s going to need to persuade eight or ten Republicans. This is why the filibuster has to go. And there’s a LOT of resistance to that among Senate Democrats. I just don’t see it happening unless the Democratic nominee is an aggressive advocate of killing the filibuster. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/590 "2019-06-25T16:04:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think changing Senate procedure is different than taking up legislation a president ran on. I doubt they’ll be anywhere near as cooperative nor will they think many voters were voting on that campaign promise. OK then, we’re screwed. So then nothing matters anyway, right? Then why is this argument worth your time? While being fully cognizant of the obstacles, I’m not quite ready to give up hope yet. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/591 "2019-06-25T16:20:50Z")
Wtf? Nothing matters because I don’t think the Senate will give up the filibuster? What’s with the drama queen act? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/592 "2019-06-25T17:36:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Wtf? Nothing matters because I don’t think the Senate will give up the filibuster? What’s with the drama queen act? What part of my post #589 do you disagree with, then? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/593 "2019-06-25T18:12:01Z")
I think the advocacy of the President will matter little, the last sentence of post 589. The Senate will abandon the filibuster if they think it will make them look foolish/impotent if they don’t and that foolish look outweighs the protections the filibuster gives them. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/594 "2019-06-25T23:11:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > Even the debates, this week, will be illuminating. We’ll hear the clues in the language of the candidates—and what’s picked up by the social media will tell us what’s resonating. > > What gets picked up on social media is nowhere near as good of a barometer of what is resonating overall as many within social media and of the pundit class credit it with. > > Remember the social media explosion over the Biden’s unwanted too friendly to the person touch? Enough on social media that the thread here was asking if his campaign was over before it began. Actual impact, actual amount it resonated with the voting public? Not so much. Obviously. I’ve heard several on-air reporters and anchors on CNN and MSNBC refer casually to the fact that whatever blows up on Twitter and Facebook gets mentioned on the television news shows. (Won’t look for a cite now but will post one when I get the chance.) The point is not that the things that blow up on social media become major, ongoing stories everywhere—the point was that those things do get _mentioned_ in the wider-reaching platforms. They then have the chance to become major, ongoing stores everywhere—if they resonate with the broader audience. If not, not. The variance is largely due to the differing demographics of Twitter as compared with CNN (etc.). > [@DSeid](#): > > Right now he has the Make-A-Deal rejection of Us-versus-Them lane pretty much all alone. Booker had I think started out trying to inhabit it as well but Biden sucked all the oxygen out of that space so he is trying, so far without much success, to find another branding message. So long as there are several staying in playing hard the othering populist play he can prevail _even if_ the Us-versus-Them fans are more numerous, as they’ll split them. [And by polling they are not.](https://morningconsult.com/2019/03/06/democratic-voters-would-rather-have-a-leader-who-heals-than-fights/) > You wouldn’t think it by reading social media or by listening to most candidates branding messages though. Interesting polling. Yes, the overall-Democratic tendency to elevate Make-a-Deal thinking over Us-Versus-Them thinking would _not_ be reflected on Twitter or the other major social media platforms. Twitter, and I guess Facebook and Instagram (neither of which I do), prioritize getting the high score and gaining dominance and other highly-competitive attitudes. Cooperation and comity are not values well-represented in the social media, because the social media are structured to reward aggression. So there will always be something of a mismatch between “left-leaning people” and “left-leaning people on social media.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/595 "2019-06-26T01:12:54Z")
[This 2017 Gallup poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/220265/americans-favor-compromise-things-done-washington.aspx) may also be of interest to you. The preference for being willing to compromise is huge and the only group that does not prefer “compromise” over “stick to beliefs” is the very conservative crowd. Liberals prefer it 63 to 14%; moderates 60 to 16%; very liberal 55 to 17%; and even conservative 43 to 27%. There is quite something of a mismatch. FWIW I think MSM is also structure to reward aggression, or at least covering conflict. It is more exciting and gets more clicks and eyeballs. It’s why Trump got so much free media in the 2016 cycle. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/596 "2019-06-26T01:20:02Z")
I think Biden has probably survived the bad press so far. The bigger question is can he get this week’s melee without sustaining too much damage. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/597 "2019-06-26T01:58:27Z")
The very nature of the crowded stage and limited time per candidate makes too much damage unlikely. Future debates when Warren and Harris can speak longer and engage in back and forths are when damage is more possible. But their strengths won’t show so well in this set up. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/598 "2019-06-26T03:22:11Z")
As DSeid has hinted at, paying at least lip service to compromise and working across the aisle is an essential political ploy. Whether sincerely trying to compromise is good strategy is a separate question. Since people keep talking about the filibuster, I’ll just mention again that I’m against doing away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/599 "2019-06-27T21:33:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … FWIW I think MSM is also structure to reward aggression, or at least covering conflict. It is more exciting and gets more clicks and eyeballs. It’s why Trump got so much free media in the 2016 cycle. Oh, absolutely—‘if it bleeds, it leads’ is an age-old principle of journalism. Humans love watching conflict. (Participating in it…that’s less universally-craved.) Along those lines: the question of whether all on stage tonight (except, presumably, Williamson, who professes to be about ‘love’) will attempt as many attacks on Biden as possible, practically guarantees high ratings for this night. The numbers are likely to be substantially higher than last night’s numbers, mainly because of the chance of clashes and shade-throwing. Humans. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/600 "2019-08-09T18:23:46Z")
Joe Biden’s latest quote: “Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.” The guy is a gaffe machine and I think may be torn apart in the general. I wish he and Sanders would step aside and make room for some of the younger candidates. Both of them have too many targets for the hate machine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042.md?page=31)