# Joe Biden's in **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 25, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042 "2019-04-25T16:13:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/721 "2019-08-18T17:30:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And Joes little gaffes? he’s been making them all his life. They arent "senior moments."n If that’s the defense you’re going with, please try again. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/722 "2019-08-18T18:00:29Z")
That is no defense, it a straightforward observation. It is why these gaffes do little to his numbers: his doing this is already baked in. The current set is no worse than the many he’s made over the years. Each one will get more press now of course, but those prepared to vote for him unless someone else demonstrates sufficient chops expect them from him by now. Disingenuously painting him as becoming demented won’t hurt him in the primary. These voters know him. It will however provide the foundation for hurting him in the general if he is the nominee. That’s a different audience. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/723 "2019-08-18T21:39:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If that’s the defense you’re going with, please try again. 😕 It’s true. Joe has been known for those for decades at least. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/724 "2019-08-18T22:47:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That is no defense, it a straightforward observation. It is why these gaffes do little to his numbers: his doing this is already baked in. What does “baked in” mean? You’re acting as though the feelings that voters have towards these candidates is fixed in stone. Believe it or not, a lot of people are only now starting to realize (or remember) that Biden sucks so much in the speech department. Riding on Obama’s coattails only gets you so far before performance under the spotlight starts to really matter. > [@](#): > > The current set is no worse than the many he’s made over the years. Over the years? You mean the years pre-Trump? Since 2017, the country has been suffering under a president who is a royally fucked up gaffe machine. Gaffes take on a different meaning when living with them like we’ve had to do. Biden isn’t the only one whose cringey speech raises questions about his age and cognitive health. Trump is facing this criticism too, and rightly so. This parallel is just one more reason why Biden vs Trump isn’t the ideal contest. That and sexual impropriety are two things Biden can’t go there without exposing his own damn self. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/725 "2019-08-19T00:46:05Z")
“Baked in”? You’re not familiar with that phrase? Those who support Biden are overwhelmingly of populations that expect gaffes from him and know that this is not a new age related thing. The untruthful statement that is can sour the younger voters who do not support him from being enthusiastic in the general but they are already not voting for him in the primary. The proof of what I assert is in the polls and their lack of significant movement. Movement from him will happen if it happens not because of disingenuous negative campaigning against him but on the strengths of Warren as the other choice, assuming she continues to show that strength. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/726 "2019-08-19T01:47:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Movement from him will happen if it happens not because of disingenuous negative campaigning against him but on the strengths of Warren as the other choice, assuming she continues to show that strength. Ffs, it’s not disingenuous to argue against Biden on these grounds. I could care less whether his foibles are due to old age or a natural predilection for speaking without thinking. It marks him as a weak presidential candidate. And really, the polls haven’t moved much because the race is still early. If Biden starts taking it slow and easy to keep his public embarrassments to a minimum, it allows others like Warren to grab more attention. “Baked in” is overconfidence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/727 "2019-08-19T02:19:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Ffs, it’s not disingenuous to argue against Biden on these grounds. I could care less whether his foibles are due to old age or a natural predilection for speaking without thinking. It marks him as a weak presidential candidate… The gaffes seem to be part of his charm and popularity, so you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/728 "2019-08-19T09:54:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The gaffes seem to be part of his charm and popularity, so you are wrong. Lol! ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/729 "2019-08-19T19:53:28Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Yes, and it will work. He and his base will have a blast making fun of her and he’ll campaign his ass off all over the midwest and the “Rust Belt” and the crowds will roar with laughter and applause, energizing Republicans. He’ll do the exact same thing in the debates and she will be thrown off her “serious woman talking about serious business” game, be rattled by Trump’s juvenile attacks and unable to parry it with any humor, and come off looking like Hillary 2.0. Black voters in the main are going to be unenthused about a woman who looks and speaks like someone’s mom in 1997 at a PTA meeting warning the parents about the dangers of Marilyn Manson and Eminem, and their turnout will be lackluster. And anyone who thinks that Warren can connect with blue collar workers has never been a blue collar worker. We’ll have 4 more “Tremendous”, “Yuge” years. The type of voters who are going to be swayed by Trump’s “Pocohontas” line, especially at the late dates of the presidential debates, will have been in Trump’s corner from the beginning. As for Warren in general not being able to stand up to Trump’s juvenile attacks, on the contrary, her demeanor and generally forceful way of speaking will be more than enough to counter him with. And I’ve been a blue collar worker, and though I am not one now, I still think of myself as one, and connect with her just fine, because her whole thing is about giving power back to blue collar workers. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/730 "2019-08-19T21:51:48Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Yes, and it will work. He and his base will have a blast making fun of her and he’ll campaign his ass off all over the midwest and the “Rust Belt” and the crowds will roar with laughter and applause, energizing Republicans. He’ll do the exact same thing in the debates and she will be thrown off her “serious woman talking about serious business” game, be rattled by Trump’s juvenile attacks and unable to parry it with any humor, and come off looking like Hillary 2.0. **Black voters in the main are going to be unenthused about a woman who looks and speaks like someone’s mom in 1997 at a PTA meeting warning the parents about the dangers of Marilyn Manson and Eminem, and their turnout will be lackluster.** And anyone who thinks that Warren can connect with blue collar workers has never been a blue collar worker. We’ll have 4 more “Tremendous”, “Yuge” years. I don’t think I’ve heard any black people saying this about Warren, so this looks like projection. As long as Warren doesn’t go out of her way to avoid black communities, doesn’t say things that are racist or racist-adjacent, and sticks to her progressive platform, I’m confident she will get good black turnout. The thing that hurt Hillary was the stupid but nonetheless pervasive idea that she was evil. Evil incarnate unlike the world has ever seen. The GOP pounded this drum for 20 years. Warren doesn’t have that handicap, so it’s wrong to see her treatment as anything like Hillary’s. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/731 "2019-08-20T15:52:00Z")
rtr > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > The problem is the GOP and Trump will lie about her and cheat in every way they can to stop her. That’s going to be true no matter who the Dem nominee is. Remember what they did to a moderate technocrat like Dukakis, and it’s not like they’ve become nicer since 1988. They’re going to throw the kitchen sink at whoever the Dems choose, so maybe it ought to be someone that Dems really like and will go out of their way to turn out to vote for. I think it’s not Biden. He’s as close to a default choice, an heir apparent to the nomination, as the Dems have this cycle, but he’s only polling at 28% in the battle for the nomination. Given that everyone knows who Joe Biden is, that says to me that a lot of Dems have considered Joe and have shrugged their shoulders. The likelihood that he’s going to pull those marginal Dem voters out of the woodwork next Election Day is slim. And the thing that really can kill us next November is low turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/732 "2019-08-20T18:02:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think I’ve heard any black people saying this about Warren, so this looks like projection. As long as Warren doesn’t go out of her way to avoid black communities, doesn’t say things that are racist or racist-adjacent, and sticks to her progressive platform, I’m confident she will get good black turnout. > > The thing that hurt Hillary was the stupid but nonetheless pervasive idea that she was evil. Evil incarnate unlike the world has ever seen. The GOP pounded this drum for 20 years. Warren doesn’t have that handicap, so it’s wrong to see her treatment as anything like Hillary’s. Hillary had strong numbers with black voters. Warren is extremely lowly. One black analysis I highly respect explained simply she has not tried to cultivate a relationship with those communities until she decided to run for president. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/733 "2019-08-20T19:02:21Z")
Do you have links to these polls with Warren’s low numbers among blacks? I have had a very hard time finding polls that give racial (or other demographic) breakdowns in a convenient to find format. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/734 "2019-08-20T19:24:03Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Do you have links to these polls with Warren’s low numbers among blacks? I have had a very hard time finding polls that give racial (or other demographic) breakdowns in a convenient to find format. [![](https://i.imgur.com/4yLVjP5.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/4yLVjP5.jpg) > **[Most Democrats Are Excited by ‘Several’ 2020 Candidates - Not Just Their Top...](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/08/16/most-democrats-are-excited-by-several-2020-candidates-not-just-their-top-choice/)** > > A majority of Democratic voters who prefer one of the presidential candidates are excited about several candidates vying for the party's nomination. Far fewer are enthused only by their first choice. [![](https://i.imgur.com/9Ej1Xkl.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/9Ej1Xkl.jpg) [https://www.changeresearch.com/south-carolina-poll-aug-9-12-2019](https://www.changeresearch.com/south-carolina-poll-aug-9-12-2019) [![](https://i.imgur.com/GRJXbcG.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/GRJXbcG.jpg) > **[Fox July 7-10, 2019 Complete South Carolina Topline July 11 Release | PDF |...](https://www.scribd.com/document/416578375/Fox-July-7-10-2019-Complete-South-Carolina-Topline-July-11-Release)** > > Fox News poll of South Carolina Democratic primary voters ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/735 "2019-08-20T19:37:52Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://i.imgur.com/4yLVjP5.jpg) > > [Most Democrats Are Excited by ‘Several’ 2020 Candidates - Not Just Their Top Choice | Pew Research Center](https://www.people-press.org/2019/08/16/most-democrats-are-excited-by-several-2020-candidates-not-just-their-top-choice/) > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://i.imgur.com/9Ej1Xkl.jpg) > > [https://www.changeresearch.com/south-carolina-poll-aug-9-12-2019](https://www.changeresearch.com/south-carolina-poll-aug-9-12-2019) > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://i.imgur.com/GRJXbcG.jpg) > > [Fox July 7-10, 2019 Complete South Carolina Topline July 11 Release | PDF | Opinion Poll | Sampling (Statistics)](https://www.scribd.com/document/416578375/Fox-July-7-10-2019-Complete-South-Carolina-Topline-July-11-Release) New poll this week > **[Fox August 11-13, 2019 Complete National Topline August 15 Release | PDF |...](https://www.scribd.com/document/422003960/Fox-August-11-13-2019-Complete-National-Topline-August-15-Release?campaign=VigLink&ad_group=xxc1xx&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate)** > > fox news poll Overall: Biden 31% Warren 20% Sanders 10 % Harris 8% Black voters: Biden 37% Sanders 18% Harris 10% Warren 8% ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/736 "2019-08-20T19:54:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “Baked in”? You’re not familiar with that phrase? > > Those who support Biden are overwhelmingly of populations that expect gaffes from him and know that this is not a new age related thing. The untruthful statement that is can sour the younger voters who do not support him from being enthusiastic in the general but they are already not voting for him in the primary. > > The proof of what I assert is in the polls and their lack of significant movement. > > Movement from him will happen if it happens not because of disingenuous negative campaigning against him but on the strengths of Warren as the other choice, assuming she continues to show that strength. He may have always done this, and it may just the effect of the media amplifying his latest mistakes, but it sure seems to me like it’s gotten a lot worse lately. And he’s 78. If Harris or Buttigieg were doing this, you could say it’s absent-mindedness; devoted personality cultists could even spin it as “lovable”. At his age, it looks bad. If you spill a glass of water on yourself, people think you’re clumsy. If you spill a glass of wine on yourself, people think you’re drunk. Biden remains my second choice due to the strength of his numbers against Trump. But I find it hard to believe at this point that those numbers will continue to hold up over the course of the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/737 "2019-08-20T19:58:17Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > New poll this week > > [Fox August 11-13, 2019 Complete National Topline August 15 Release | PDF | Opinion Poll | Democratic Party (United States)](https://www.scribd.com/document/422003960/Fox-August-11-13-2019-Complete-National-Topline-August-15-Release?campaign=VigLink&ad_group=xxc1xx&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate) > > Overall: > Biden 31% > Warren 20% > Sanders 10 % > Harris 8% > > Black voters: > Biden 37% > Sanders 18% > Harris 10% > Warren 8% Thanks! And yeah, you’re right, those numbers are really bad. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/738 "2019-08-20T20:33:00Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > Hillary had strong numbers with black voters. Warren is extremely lowly. One black analysis I highly respect explained simply she has not tried to cultivate a relationship with those communities until she decided to run for president. Biden has an advantage over Warren because of his association with Obama—the most popular president ever among Dems. There’s really no need to think any deeper than that. Its not as though Biden has done a lot to cultivate relationships with black communities. He is banking on name recognition with them. But you’re right that Warren needs to do more campaigning to reach these voters. I’m just saying it’s too early to conclude she can’t light their fire if she somehow got the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/739 "2019-08-20T21:08:46Z")
Well, Delaware has a pretty sizable black population. And as has been pointed out, Clinton was very popular among blacks in 2016, judging by the primary results; but then they didn’t turn out as well for her as had been hoped in the general. So I don’t know that we can posit a direct correlation between primary preference and general turnout. It’s amusing to me that a lot of people tried to claim that Sanders’ poor performance against Clinton among blacks was evidence that black people had some baked in animosity for Bernie, which would hurt him in the general should he be nominated. But currently, Sanders is actually MORE popular with black Democrats than with white ones. So yes, people can change their minds, and I certainly don’t see any particular reason Warren would be intrinsically unappealing to black voters. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042/740 "2019-08-20T22:58:15Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > … If you spill a glass of water on yourself, people think you’re clumsy. If you spill a glass of wine on yourself, people think you’re drunk. … The people who know you won’t. They know you are clumsy. Now later if you are spilling wine while next to someone else who is spilling more, well if you’ve been accused of being drunk by your family earlier it will be you thought of as drunk by those who don’t yet know you quite as well. But otherwise? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-bidens-in/833042.md?page=38)