# Joe the Plumber **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253 "2008-10-16T19:39:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/1 "2008-10-16T19:39:13Z")
Joe the Plumber got plenty of mention in last night’s debate. But I wasn’t clear exactly what his situation was, and why Obama didn’t respond a little differently. If Joe was in position to buy a business that made over $250k a year, why couldn’t Obama have simply said **“Look buddy - you sould be happy you make more than a quarter mill a year. Your income is in the top 5%, and under my plan your taxes will go up 3%.”** I’m not sure why that would bother anyone other than the other folk making $25k or more. Or if the complaint was that Joe wanted to buy this business but couldn’t afford to, Obama could have said, **"Well, it sounds like you can’t afford to buy what you want to buy - that’s the kind of thinking that contributed to this mess our economy is currently in."** Looking at the news, it seems like he makes way under $250k, his dreams of business ownership were nothin more substantial, and just disfavors progressive taxation. Not quite the sob story to make an effective cornerstone of your emotional plea, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/2 "2008-10-16T19:51:27Z")
No, and McCain brought it up…it was a gaffe on his part. Now the poor guys identity and financial records are in all the newpapers and blogs. I feel bad for the dude. NPR had a good bit on it today. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/3 "2008-10-16T19:56:55Z")
Yeah, I couldn’t muster much sympathy for Joe the Plumber’s plight. I know a few people who own their own business’ who make the “over $250K” and they all live pretty high off the hog. My brother-in-law for example owns his own paving company that he built from the ground up and employs about 50 people. Doing so he has been able to 1) Build a massive dream house on a substantial piece of land, 2) Let his wife (my sister) not have to work, 3) Drive a $45K pickup, a BMW for sis, and new cars for each one my nieces (VW, Mazda, Toyota), 4) Go on annual family vacations to Cancun/Carribean/Hawaii/etc. Of course the tax increase will effect them but if anyone can afford it, it is definately them. ---
**Author:** ![Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a4c791/32.png) [@Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frustrated_Wonderer)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/4 "2008-10-16T20:02:08Z")
What the hell makes him think he´s going to make over 250,000? He doesn´t even have a plumbing license! [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207215/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207215/) Yeah, it´s unfortunate for him that he´s in a bit of a mess right now, but that doesn´t take away from the fact that he is a bit :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/5 "2008-10-16T20:10:17Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I know a few people who own their own business’ who make the “over $250K” and they all live pretty high off the hog. I have several friends who own small businesses. It seems their writing off of all kinds of business expenses - car, phone, travel, home office - certainly subsidizes a higher standard of living than their income alone might suggest. Don’t get me wrong - they all work hard and deserve every penny they make. But $250K supports a mighty fine standard of living IMO, whether you are a proprietor or an employee. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/6 "2008-10-16T21:30:12Z")
[According to the NY Times,](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp) he has no plumber’s license, was never an apprentice, and owes back taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/7 "2008-10-16T23:09:34Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/8 "2008-10-16T23:25:47Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > [According to the NY Times,](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp) he has no plumber’s license, was never an apprentice, and owes back taxes. I feel sorry for him. I think he’s about to turn into “Joe the unemployed non-plumber with delusions of grandeur” Perhaps he would then have to turn to his close relative Robert Wurzelbacher, who is Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental. [Cite](http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/9 "2008-10-16T23:30:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Perhaps he would then have to turn to his close relative Robert Wurzelbacher, who is Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental. > > [Cite](http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/) Oh damn - that’s TOO funny! Doesn’t McCain have people whose job is to check this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/10 "2008-10-16T23:31:20Z")
It is not over. McCain opened with Joe the Plumber today. It will be time run down the drain. He will keep plunging away though. If he gets in trouble for not paying taxes ,he will sewer McCain. The guy is a drip and should be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/11 "2008-10-16T23:34:56Z")
Whether it’s McCain or Joe Wurzelbacher, somebody’s up shit’s creek without the right credentials. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/12 "2008-10-16T23:39:16Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I have several friends who own small businesses. It seems their writing off of all kinds of business expenses - car, phone, travel, home office - certainly subsidizes a higher standard of living than their income alone might suggest. Quite true. I do independent computer support for a number of small business owners. One client, a photographer, has been able to write off most of his house. It’s legitimate - he shoots every room except the bedroom and bathroom. I installed a home theater system that serves double duty as a client monitor for his table-top photography of jewelry and food (the kitchen serves as a food prep area for those shoots). And every time he gets close to making a profit, he expands his storage system, or upgrades his computers. It’s a pretty standard operating model. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/13 "2008-10-17T01:18:57Z")
From an AP story… > [@](#): > > The burly, bald man acknowledged he doesn’t have a plumber’s license, but said he didn’t need one because he works for someone else at a company that does residential work. … and from a Reuters story… > [@](#): > > Wurzelbacher said the sudden attention had not yet translated into increased business. > > “I hope I have a lot of jobs today. Yesterday I worked on a water main break for a gas station and that’s why I didn’t give any interviews. I was muddy and soaking wet,” he said. :dubious: They must use a different definition of “residential” out there in Ohio. Around here, fixing water mains for gas stations is commercial work. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/14 "2008-10-17T01:20:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > They must use a different definition of “residential” out there in Ohio. Around here, fixing water mains for gas stations is commercial work. In anticipation of Obama’s crippling tax policies, the owner of the gas station has moved into the back room. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/15 "2008-10-17T01:29:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Perhaps he would then have to turn to his close relative Robert Wurzelbacher, who is Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental. > > [Cite](http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/) Perhaps if no one can come up with evidence of a close relationship\* from a more reliable source than Martin Eisenstadt, we should drop this particular line of attack. [http://www.prwatch.org/node/7845](http://www.prwatch.org/node/7845) \*I wouldn’t be surprised if all Wurzelbachers were related, but if he turns out to be a third cousin once removed of Charles Keating’s son-in-law, it’s pretty meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/16 "2008-10-17T02:03:21Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Yeah, I couldn’t muster much sympathy for Joe the Plumber’s plight. > I know a few people who own their own business’ who make the “over $250K” and they all live pretty high off the hog. > My brother-in-law for example owns his own paving company that he built from the ground up and employs about 50 people. Doing so he has been able to 1) Build a massive dream house on a substantial piece of land, 2) Let his wife (my sister) not have to work, 3) Drive a $45K pickup, a BMW for sis, and new cars for each one my nieces (VW, Mazda, Toyota), 4) Go on annual family vacations to Cancun/Carribean/Hawaii/etc. > Of course the tax increase will effect them but if anyone can afford it, it is definately them. That’s just so wrong. These hard working Americans shouldn’t be taxed a penny more. We should switch to a sales tax so those lame SOBs who lost their jobs can pay for the war in Iraq and make sure that AIG has more money. Why is it all the relatively well off that must suffer. Or be mildly inconvenienced. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/17 "2008-10-17T02:03:24Z")
It’s the whole “share the wealth” bullshit that really gets under my skin. I don’t expect any sympathy from the SDMB denizens, but to pay a certain percentage of tax one year, and then 3% more to “share that wealth” or to quote Big Joe B.“Get with the program and be a patriot by paying more taxes” based only upon an administration change is a crock. One shouldn’t have to earn $250k+ a year to see that. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/18 "2008-10-17T02:08:18Z")
Turns out the business Joe the plumber wanted to buy doesn’t have $250K in income/profit it has that much in _revenue._ ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/19 "2008-10-17T02:17:30Z")
But “sharing the wealth” is just another way to describe taxes. Unless one is opposed to citizens paying any taxes, why would the phrase share the wealth upset you so much? ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253/20 "2008-10-17T02:17:54Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Oh damn - that’s TOO funny! > > Doesn’t McCain have people whose job is to check this sort of thing? Could it be that they are too busy surrounding [Madame Oops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)? 😛 - “Jack” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-the-plumber/468253.md?page=2)