# Joe Wilson Fingers Karl Rove for Outing His Wife **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276 "2003-09-23T07:49:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jamcracker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@jamcracker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamcracker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/1 "2003-09-23T07:49:36Z")
Remember [Robert Novak’s outing](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20030714.shtml) Joseph Wilson’s wife as a CIA agent? Came just a week after Wilson’s Op-Ed piece in the NYT debunking the Niger/Uranium story? Jospeh Wilson’s got something to say about it. Democracy Now! (“DN!”) [interviewed Joseph Wilson](http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20030916.ra&start=13:53.5) on 9/16: DN! played a speech Wilson gave where Wilson fingered Karl Rove as the man who outed his wife: > [@](#): > > At the end of the day, it’s of keen interest to me to see if we can get Karl Rove frog marched out of the White House in handcuffs. [_applause break_] And trust me when I use that name, I measure my words. After quoting that excerpt from his speech, DN! asked Wilson about his fingering of Rove. Wilson responded: > [@](#): > > Well first of all, if you look back and take a look at the Novak article, it quotes two senior administration sources, which basically is code for the White House. The Press Office and Scott McLellan was absolutely denying that he knew anything about it or had any knowledge of what may have happened. That doesn’t leave too many offices in the White House who would be interested in this. The political office is obviously the next place to look. Now my own sense is that . . . I want to make sure that the appropriate investigation is done. . . . DN! asked Wilson if this sent a message to other administration dissenters. Wilson responded: > [@](#): > > I’ve said that all along. I’ve said that it was very clear to me that the intent of the this attack was not to shut me up. Now there may have been some desire to impugn my integrity, which is just how the game is played here in Washington. But the intent, the intent, was clearly to intimidate others and keep others from stepping forward. Is Wilson just a lefty crackpot? Or are there issues for debate here?[ul][li]What about Wilson naming Rove as Novak’s source? Is Wilson just making it up, or is there something to the allegation?What about Wilson’s notion that the administration tried to silence others by outing his wife? Novak names administration officials as his source. Is there another explanation for administration officials outing a CIA agent a week after Wilson’s NYT piece?[/ul]Wilson’s logic for fingering Rove is tenuous in the passage quoted. Wilson seems to say that if the Press Office and Scott McLellan honestly denied it - then it’s most likely Rove. But, would Rove even have known that Wilson’s wife was CIA? I hope not.[/li] Novak appears to name “two senior administration officials” as his source. If we assume Novak isn’t lying, what are possible explanations for two senior administration sources discussing anything about Wilson’s wife’s CIA affiliation? If administration sources are talking to Novak about why Wilson was sent on the Niger mission, why is there any need to mention his wife? What’s the most charitable interpretation? That Novak just chucked in that phrase about administration officials - even though it had nothing to do with the sentence or paragraph? Disclaimers:[ul][_]My post reads as if it’s a fact that Wilson’s wife is a CIA agent. Wilson never confirms this, and when speaking about Novak’s column, he’s careful to say something like “if what Novak alleges is true …”[_]DN! is definitely a lefty program. Please note that I’ve quoted only from Joe Wilson, speaking on DN!, not from any DN! anchors.[_]I transcribed the segments I quoted. If you can find a transcript, I’ll be miffed I wasted the effort.[_]As a GD newbie, I feel compelled to cite the [only](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198662&highlight=novak+wilson) [other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198349&highlight=novak+wilson) two SDMB hits for “novak wilson” in 6 months.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/2 "2003-09-23T11:09:14Z")
Well, as an interested Australian on the outside looking in, it seems like more classic Machiavellian American political assassination behaviour I should think. Not that I am entitled to an informed opinion on this, but one of the disadvantages of having your Executive Office kept as an independant third party to both your Congress and your Senate is that (it seems to me) a certain lack of accountability manifests itself on those occasions when the nasty stuff starts to fly. But in the interests of fairness, there are many, many advantages too. It’s worth noting that we don’t hear much about Karl Rove down here. The only time I ever hear his name is on the SDMB to be honest. My general perception is that he seems to be quite the nasty fuck, who also happens to be a most inappropriately influential string puller. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/3 "2003-09-23T12:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Well first of all, if you look back and take a look at the Novak article, it quotes two senior administration sources, which basically is code for the White House. Possibly. Does Novak say the current White House? Novak claims Wilson was involved in Iraqi affairs at least since 1991, and Wilson cited some kind of evidence that in 1988 Iraq was trying to create commercial contacts with Niger, presumably to obtain uranium. And Wilson retired in 1998, under Clinton. I am also not seeing anything by way of evidence that Rove was involved - just an accusation by Wilson. Wilson doesn’t even say why he thinks Rove had something to do with it. I see a lot of smoke. Is there any fire, or is it mirrors? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/4 "2003-09-23T12:22:33Z")
I don’t see anything in the quote that provides a “smoking gun” to Rove but there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible. He has a long history of doing exactly this sort of thing. Unfortunately, he also has a long history of not leaving any evidence around when what he does is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/5 "2003-09-23T12:36:16Z")
you said ‘fingered’ Okay, I’m over that now **[“The Crazies Are Back”: Bush Sr.’s CIA Briefer Recalls How the First Bush Administration Referred to Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4736.htm)** Discussion of the outing of Wilson by former CIA analysts Ray McGovern and David MacMichael. There’s no mention of Rove here, though. Careful words in many places of the transcript. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/6 "2003-09-23T12:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s worth noting that we don’t hear much about Karl Rove down here. The only time I ever hear his name is on the SDMB to be honest. My general perception is that he seems to be quite the nasty fuck, who also happens to be a most inappropriately influential string puller. To be sure, not everyone agrees with that sessment. Like me. However, he is bombastic and in-your-face about his views, has been a priceless aid to Bush, and so lefties in America utterly despise him in every way, and curse the day he was born. And the SMDB is more than slightly geared to a crowd that does not support 'Publicans. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/7 "2003-09-23T13:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I don’t see anything in the quote that provides a “smoking gun” to Rove but there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible. He has a long history of doing exactly this sort of thing. Unfortunately, he also has a long history of not leaving any evidence around when what he does is illegal. \*\* So “there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible” because there is no evidence that he is the one responsible? There is no evidence that he was on the grassy knoll either, so I guess he did that too. I bet he knows more about Amelia Earhardt than he lets on, too. The truth is out there. Waaaaaaaaay out there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/8 "2003-09-23T14:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > Not that I am entitled to an informed opinion on this, but one of the disadvantages of having your Executive Office kept as an independant third party to both your Congress and your Senate is that (it seems to me) a certain lack of accountability manifests itself on those occasions when the nasty stuff starts to fly._\* And there are NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER any sort of dirty tricks, mysterious deaths, or similar situations in parliamentary governments. Oh, no. That NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER happens. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/9 "2003-09-23T15:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jamcracker \* > \*\*Wilson seems to say that if the Press Office and Scott McLellan honestly denied it - then it’s most likely Rove. [In this piece by MSNBC’s Tim Noah](http://slate.msn.com/id/2088471/) (who I consider a partisan hack like Novak, just at the other end of the spectrum), When McLellan was asked “But did Karl Rove do it?” he responded “As I said, it’s totally ridiculous.” MSNBC’s Noah is being willfully dense when he says that this isn’t a denial- Is McLellan going to say that it was ridiculous _but true_? In addition: > [@](#): > > "Wilson, for his part, denied today that he ever accused Rove. He told Chatterbox “Karl Rove” was simply a handy metonym for whatever two “senior administration officials” fingered Plame (correctly or falsely, Wilson still won’t say). So if you read between the lines of Noah’s vitriol, it appears that not only has McLellan denied it, but Wilson has somewhat backed off the accusation. I’m assuming Wilson’s wife really was CIA- Wilson’s behavior and this whole brouhaha doesn’t make sense otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/10 "2003-09-23T15:31:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > I don’t see anything in the quote that provides a “smoking gun” to Rove but there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible. He has a long history of doing exactly this sort of thing. Unfortunately, he also has a long history of not leaving any evidence around when what he does is illegal. If I said, “There’s no ‘smoking gun’ evidence to indicate that **Evil Captor** gives heroin to ten-year-old girls in exchange for sexual favors, but there’s little doubt that it happens,” then I would rightly be attacked for the baseless and outrageous false accusation. Yet somehow you find it acceptable to offer similarly baseless accusations. Why is that? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/11 "2003-09-23T15:38:25Z")
so help me, I knew what the OP meant by the title but I had to get that image out of my mind before I opened it. Should I start the “Joe Wilson Outs Karl Rove for Fingering His Wife” thread? ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/12 "2003-09-23T19:53:01Z")
I beg of you all to cure my ignorance on one point: Is there any way to compell Novak to “out” his source? There are exceptions to privilege for lawyers and psychologists (AFAIK), so are there any for journalists? Obviously, if the accusation is true, there are numerous lives that have been placed in great danger, including the wife and all of her “contacts”. Anyone know the legal tools at the public’s disposal to ferret out the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/13 "2003-09-23T20:39:09Z")
Welcome to GD jamcracker, you seem like a very experienced already! ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/14 "2003-09-23T21:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I don’t see anything in the quote that provides a “smoking gun” to Rove but there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible. He has a long history of doing exactly this sort of thing. Unfortunately, he also has a long history of not leaving any evidence around when what he does is illegal. \*\* Yeah, he’s been doing all this bad stuff, and what’s worse is he’s hiding it. We know that because there’s no evidence. Now where have I heard that before? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/15 "2003-09-23T21:27:04Z")
Come now, Rick, if I had about 2,000 convictions for selling heroin to little girls and somebody in my neighborhood was accused of selling heroin to little girls, who wouldn’t suspect me? Well, apparently not Republican partisans. They need tons of proof before they can see the obvious, at least, where Repubs are concerned. Fortunately, it’s availalble. Here’s a few links about Rove’s dirty, filthy, disgusting, vile, nauseating past: [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20010305&s=dubose](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20010305&s=dubose) [http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1101.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1101.html) > **[Bush’s hatchet man: two biographies of Karl Rove](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2003/07/rove-j19.html)** > > Bush’s Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential by James Moore and Wayne Slater; Boy Genius: Karl Rove, the Brains Behind the Remarkable Political Triumph of George W. Bush by Lou Dubose, Jan Reid and Carl M. Cannon [http://www.bushwatch.com/rats.htm](http://www.bushwatch.com/rats.htm) > **[NdtCeda.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=ndtceda&e=com)** > > Extensive selection of high-quality domain names. Knowledgeable, friendly customer support. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/16 "2003-09-23T23:21:49Z")
Thanks for the further accusations, **Evil Captor**. Did you have any proof? I am sorry to say that I can’t consider the World Socialist League maunderings to be proof. Specifically, you have accused Rove of being the one who outed Mrs. Wilson. Did you have any proof of that, or are you hoping the mud will stick without any? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jamcracker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@jamcracker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamcracker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/17 "2003-09-24T03:46:32Z")
Wilson’s credibilty is damaged by **Mojo** ’s cite. In the audio track of the speech, Wilson seemed very sure of himself. He “measured his words” when he named Rove. Later, he denies the allegation altogether. It’s tough not to hold that against him when evaluating his other statements. No one has disputed that “two senior administration sources” tipped Novak that Wilson’s wife was CIA. There are two questions on this topic that I’m still interested in: [ul][_]Is it possible Rove could have known that Wilson’s wife was CIA? Why would he? It seems absurd to me that Rove would know anything about anyone’s being in the CIA. But then, what administration source would know? Can you name a position a potential source could have held where he or she would have that knowledge?[_] Why would _any_ administration source ever out any CIA agent? What’s the most charitable interpretation?[/ul]Thanks **Apos** , I was hoping someone would notice :). ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/18 "2003-09-24T03:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Not that I am entitled to an informed opinion on this, but one of the disadvantages of having your Executive Office kept as an independant third party to both your Congress and your Senate is that (it seems to me) a certain lack of accountability manifests itself on those occasions when the nasty stuff starts to fly.** Nitpick! Nitpick! The Senate is part of the Congress. Congress is made up of the House of Representatives and the Senate. OK, I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/19 "2003-09-24T06:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > Not that I am entitled to an informed opinion on this, but one of the disadvantages of having your Executive Office kept as an independant third party to both your Congress and your Senate is that (it seems to me) a certain lack of accountability manifests itself on those occasions when the nasty stuff starts to fly. Are your cabinets accountable? My understanding is that in the British system, the cabinet does whatever they want, and parliment is expected to ratify whatever they come up with. If they don’t like it, their only recourse is a vote of no confidence to install a new PM (who then installs another cabinet, without any accountability to the parliment). Is Australia different? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/20 "2003-09-24T11:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Thanks for the further accusations, **Evil Captor**. Did you have any proof? > > I am sorry to say that I can’t consider the World Socialist League maunderings to be proof. > > Specifically, you have accused Rove of being the one who outed Mrs. Wilson. Did you have any proof of that, or are you hoping the mud will stick without any? > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* Here’s the syllogism for ya, Shodan Rove has committed many, many, many acts of dirty tricksterism. Many of the acts of dirty tricksterism have involved secretly passing information about people to the press. Rove works for the White House as resident dirty trickster. The case in question involved secretly passing information about a person to the press by someone who works in the White House. By far the likeliest candidate is Karl Rove Hope I helped you understand. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276.md?page=2)