# Joe Wilson Fingers Karl Rove for Outing His Wife **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276 "2003-09-23T07:49:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/41 "2003-09-29T15:06:28Z")
If one of the reporters who was clued in begins to write about it and the administration stonewalls then it’s 50-50 that it sets off a feeding frenzy among the White House Press Corps. And that’s the sort of thing that brings down administrations and cabinet secretaries. Great fun to watch…less fun to be a part of. I speak as a man who covered politics during impeachment. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/42 "2003-09-29T15:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Legally speaking, by the way, there’s not much legal protection for incriminatory statements given to a journalist, even if the statement is putatively off-the-record, background, not for attribution, etc. There is basically nothing preventing the US Attorney from calling the relevant journalists in front of a grand jury tomorrow morning to force them to spill the beans on who spilled the beans. Nevertheless, I’m not holding my breath on that one. \*\* Can you cite me some chapter and verse on this, minty? Not challenging you…just want some more material on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/43 "2003-09-29T15:15:54Z")
[Chapter and verse](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/16.html#1). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/44 "2003-09-29T21:11:55Z")
Civilians aren’t supposed to know those things, sure, and the one who told the reporters is the most culpable. But only Robert Novak wrote it, and that’s how the rest of the world found out about Plame’s second job. Why doesn’t Novak have his balls in a vise now, or does he? ---
**Author:** ![jamcracker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@jamcracker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamcracker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/45 "2003-09-29T21:46:45Z")
According to a [Jan 2003 Esquire article](http://www.ronsuskind.com/writing/esquire/esq_rove_0103.html), Rove used Novak to sling mud in the '92 Bush presidential campaign. Bush fired him because of it. > [@](#): > > Sources close to the former president say Rove was fired from the 1992 Bush presidential campaign after he planted a negative story with columnist Robert Novak about dissatisfaction with campaign fundraising chief and Bush loyalist Robert Mosbacher Jr. It was smoked out, and he was summarily ousted. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/46 "2003-09-29T22:04:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Civilians aren’t supposed to know those things, sure, and the one who told the reporters is the most culpable. But only Robert Novak wrote it, and that’s how the rest of the world found out about Plame’s second job. Why doesn’t Novak have his balls in a vise now, or does he? \*\* I wondered about this, too, but apparently it’s only illegal for a _government official_ to release the identity of an undercover CIA operative, so Novak won’t be arrested (more’s the pity). That still leaves the question of his journalistic ethics, however. He claims that this information was newsworthy, but given the potential for real harm, both to Wilson’s wife and to anyone who was working with her, that claim rings a bit hollow. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/47 "2003-09-29T22:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > In vain, one suspects, because the Party Line has not yet been formulated. [Talking Points Memo](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/) has a few examples showing that the right-wing punditry is having trouble coming up with reasonable or consistent spin for this. It mostly consists of more shots at Wilson, which are irrelevant at this point anyway. One suggests that the leak didn’t matter because everyone knew she was a CIA agent anyway (uh, yeah, OK) while another suggests that Wilson himself is to blame because he should have known they’d do this if he crossed them. McClellan’s WH press conference this morning was even more studious than usual about managing to say absolutely nothing. I don’t know why they even put him out there, if he’s not really going to answer questions and is going to repeat the same memes over and over; just post a press release and be done with it. The gist, however, seems to be that Bush and Co. are simply going to pretend this doesn’t exist until the Justice Dept. compels them to look into it. I, for one, believe this calls for an independent counsel. I also don’t know how much more honor and dignity we can stand to have Bush bring to the White House. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/48 "2003-09-29T23:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Early Out \* > \*\*I wondered about this, too, but apparently it’s only illegal for a _government official_ to release the identity of an undercover CIA operative, so Novak won’t be arrested (more’s the pity). > > That still leaves the question of his journalistic ethics, however. He claims that this information was newsworthy, but given the potential for real harm, both to Wilson’s wife and to anyone who was working with her, that claim rings a bit hollow. \*\* The history is very very clear here. If we get the info…we can run it. My brethren did it with the Pentagon papers and will do it again and again. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/49 "2003-09-30T00:48:57Z")
It seems odd that those in charge of those who’re in charge of investigating are those who’re being investigated. Great luxury, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/50 "2003-09-30T01:13:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I don’t see anything in the quote that provides a “smoking gun” to Rove but there’s little doubt that he’s the one responsible. He has a long history of doing exactly this sort of thing. Unfortunately, he also has a long history of not leaving any evidence around when what he does is illegal. \*\* Wow. Will that ever come back and haunt you the next time you post about Bush and WMDs.🙂 I can think of at least 5 posters here who are sure to bookmark that comment. BTW, Novak was on the news today saying that all he actually heard was that Wilson’s wife **worked** at the CIA-- as an analyst, not an operative. I think his original piece did use the word “opperative”, but he’s backpeddling now. May be much ado about nothing. ---
**Author:** ![NotMrKnowItAll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6bbea6/32.png) [@NotMrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotMrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/51 "2003-09-30T01:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*It seems odd that those in charge of those who’re in charge of investigating are those who’re being investigated. > > Great luxury, I’d say. \*\* If that’s luxury, give me a hard-scrabble existence. IMMHO, Ashcroft is in a most unpleasant situation. Does he appoint an independent council, dragging up reminiscence of Kenneth Starr, or does he pursue this directly, with the conflict-of-interest baggage that would certainly follow, or will some Doper come along and point out my excluding some middle that I can’t see. A felony is a felony, and if Ashcroft drags his feet on this, certainly some ax-grinder will come along and make hay out of it(to mix metaphors as if cows were going out of style). Indeed, what is the statute of limitations on this offense? Is it treason? It’s dastardly, I know that for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/52 "2003-09-30T01:24:44Z")
From Novak’s article: > [@](#): > > Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. I think this terminology, plus the manner in which he was given this nugget of information, makes his backpedaling today pure bullshit. > [@](#): > > May be much ado about nothing. That’s certainly what the administration wants us to think. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/53 "2003-09-30T01:29:08Z")
I don’t think that independent counsel is an option anymore. I think that Starr was the last. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/54 "2003-09-30T01:45:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > May be much ado about nothing. > \*\* I suspect that DCI Tenet has better things to do than get his panties in a _very_ public wad over nothing. Maybe not though. I don’t know the man. It seems unlikely that he’d’ve sent a letter to the DoJ and allowed the letter to be published in national newspapers if there was nothing going on. At least, that’s how it seems. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/55 "2003-09-30T03:02:54Z")
Posted by **Jonathan Chance:** > [@](#): > > It’s generally accepted that a journalist has the right to keep sources absolutely confidential from everyone except his or her superiors at whatever shop he’s at (i.e. his assistant managing editor or higher). > > There’s been some noise about changing that but I’ve never seen such ‘shield laws’ successfully challenged at the highest levels. > > Lawyers…feel free to bring me up to speed if I missed one. Not so. I’m a lawyer, and I used to be a newspaper reporter. Attorneys, psychiatrists and priests cannot be compelled to testify as to any statement made by a client, patient or penitent in the context of a professional relationship. The relationship between reporter and news source has no such protection. (“Shield laws” are statutes that prevent a newspaper from publishing the name of a rape victim.) There is no legal reason why Robert Novak cannot be compelled to identify his source on the witness stand, if he does take the stand in connection with all this and if the judge decides that information is relevant to the case. For that matter, even at this late date there is no reason why Woodward and/or Bernstein could not be compelled to identify “Deep Throat” on the witness stand, if the identity of their Watergate source were somehow relevant to a genuine case in controversy. We should all keep in mind that if Rove, or **anybody** in the Bush Administration is the source here, and if Bush was in a position to know about it at any time – Nixon went down for much less. The Watergate break-in was a “third-rate burglary” that amounted to, at worst, cheating in the electoral game. Disclosing the identity of a covert CIA agent is close to treason. Posted by **smiling bandit:** > [@](#): > > And the SMDB is more than slightly geared to a crowd that does not support 'Publicans. Since when? I’ve never tried to do a poll, but it seems to me I see plenty of right-wingers posting on this board. Dopers are practically selected for knowledge of English and access to an Internet-linked computer, and self-selected for a certain degree of interest in intellectual matters. Anyone who has all those characteristics can be found here. There might be an additional selection factor in that many or most Dopers first learned about this board from Cecil’s column, which is published mostly in alternative weekly newspapers in urban areas – but are the readers of such newspapers necessarily leftists or liberals? If there **were** a definite leftward (or rightward) slant in the Doper community — that would be a very interesting and important fact, with sociological and political implications. Might make a good thread topic. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/56 "2003-09-30T03:18:34Z")
Re: my stuff is being bookmarked It’s great to be revered. In the meantime, I’m seriously not worried about seeing the obvious here: this leak has Rove’s dirty little fingerprints all over it. As has been pointed out, he was fired by Bush Sr. by using Novak in a very similar manner back in 1992. Apparently, Rove hasn’t learned much in the intervening decade. Rove is gonna be seriously hosed over this one, if not by the press or the legal system, then by his own team. I mean, Wislon was MUCH less of a blip on the horizon prior to his wife’s betrayal by Rove (or his minions). Just exactly how much advantage was there to be had in this sleazy act of vengeance, in comparison to the downside whose dimensions are becoming ominously clear? I hope if some of Plame’s contacts are killed or imprisoned as a result of this leak, that names are named so we can all know the price of vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/57 "2003-09-30T11:27:00Z")
But if Karl Rove knows who is or is not a CIA operative, someone had to tell him. Knowledge of CIA personnel is not part of his portfolio as Resident Sleazemeister. The Bushiviks may be perfectly willing to let Rove fall on his sword for this. His chief function is as an advisor, he doesn’t need to be any further than a phone call away. They can dress him up in the Big Encilada suit, toss him overboard. He lands a job working for somebody _officially_ non-political (Heritage Foundation, American Enterprise, etc.) and keeps on keepin’ on. It will be publicly a big hairy ass deal, but in effect, zilch. Rove may very well have passed the info to Novak. But someone passed it to him, and that person is the source of the leak. I think it best to chuck 'em all out. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/58 "2003-09-30T11:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > \*\*The history is very very clear here. If we get the info…we can run it. My brethren did it with the Pentagon papers and will do it again and again. \*\* While I strongly support freedom of the press, I have a bit of a problem in this case. The Pentagon Papers were truly newsworthy. The fact that Wilson’s wife is or may be a CIA operative seems less so - how does possession of this information serve the needs of the public? Hypothetically, if Wilson’s wife and/or some of her contacts were killed as a result of this revelation, would you still maintain that Novak was absolutely justified in publishing the information? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/59 "2003-09-30T12:52:50Z")
The **decision** to run the story is a moral one, I agree. But the **right** (IMH-yet-media-backgrounded-O) to publish is absolute. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276/60 "2003-09-30T13:49:09Z")
\*\* minty and BrainGlutton\*\*, Thanks for the information regarding the legalities of the situation. Another legal question, if you would be so kind… If Ashcroft drops the ball on this, what legal recourse does Wilson have in the courts against the “leak”, and possibly Novak. Certainly his wife’s career is now over, and he can easily prove harm. Can a suit from a private citizen subpoena Novak, and possibly Rove, Rice, or any of the other possible sources of the leak (even Bush?)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe-wilson-fingers-karl-rove-for-outing-his-wife/203276.md?page=4)