# Joe\_Cool and Jersey Diamond - Match Made In Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214 "2002-11-22T19:43:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/101 "2002-11-25T19:48:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > If Jersey Diamond relayed the story to me, live, that she did in GD about making a child cut her own switch and then whipping her legs until they were covered in red welts…I would absolutely not have any qualms. > [@](#): > > when you casually refer to leaving welts or your child not being able to sit down that I get a little wary. I don’t recall that she ever said that she did that - I seem to recall her specifically denying this. She was talking about what her mother did to her, IIRC. Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “casually” - didn’t see this either. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying I do it right upon being introduced. I’m saying that if presented with the evidence that she was hurting and leaving marks on her child, I would call. If I found out the kid was getting welts on a regular basis, I would too. If it was on rare rare ocasions I would not (though I personally think leaving welts is excessive in any case). ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/102 "2002-11-25T19:52:16Z")
She told the story of her mother doing it to her as if it was no biggie, that’s what I mean by casually. Joe\_Cool, in the original thread (also cut and pasted in my OP) said “the right thing to do would be to burn your ass and **gradually, as you became able to sit down again** …” emphasis mine. Jersey Diamond’s example of what her mother did served as an example of a story that if someone told it to ME in the FIRST PERSON, I would call. If Jersey told me she made her kid cut her own switch (humiliation and forcing the child to participate in her own abuse, thereby taking blame for her injury)and then whipping her until her legs were welted, I would call the police. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/103 "2002-11-25T20:05:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by vanilla_ > Like I said: > their fruits are unchristian. Now, now. Let’s not turn this into another homophobia debate. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/104 "2002-11-25T23:37:56Z")
**IzzyR** , it’s people like **jarbabyj** who help STOP child abuse, prevent long-term damage and save lives. I think this clearly outweighs the disruption that may be caused to some families who are not abusive. I commend her courage and frankly can’t believe that she has to defend herself for reporting suspected child abuse while JD and JC have slunk away like cowards. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/105 "2002-11-26T01:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > > It sounds to me like they regard children like possessions. > > Everyone does. **IzzyR** sees all, knows all. :rolleyes: I regard that as a basically insane idea, that parents own their children, that the children are the parents’ possessions. We don’t. We hold them in trust; that’s all. We are to protect them and nurture them, and prepare them for the day when they will be on their own. But they are not ours to use or exploit, to treat as objects. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/106 "2002-11-26T02:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leander \* > **IzzyR** , it’s people like **jarbabyj** who help STOP child abuse, prevent long-term damage and save lives. I think this clearly outweighs the disruption that may be caused to some families who are not abusive. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are a lot of horror stories of child abuse, but there are also an awful lot of horror stories of overzealous social workers destroying lives - sometimes literally. Depends on the case. > [@](#): > > I commend her courage and frankly can’t believe that she has to defend herself for reporting suspected child abuse while JD and JC have slunk away like cowards. Right. So they don’t show up to a thread where a mob of brave and bold posters vie as to who can shout the loudest about how evil they are. Big time cowards. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I regard that as a basically insane idea, that parents own their children, that the children are the parents’ possessions. > > We don’t. We hold them in trust; that’s all. We are to protect them and nurture them, and prepare them for the day when they will be on their own. But they are not ours to use or exploit, to treat as objects. Actually I think your comments are pretty inane in their own right. So kids are not ours to exploit or treat as objects? A revolutionary concept - sure to enlighten many posters. Here’s the secret. Nobody has introduced any evidence - nor have I seen any - that JC & JD regard children as objects to be exploited. The issue has not been brought up in this thread, or in any related thread, AFAIK. What I was discussing was whether people think of their children as “theirs” in that they have a special bond and connection with them that goes beyond the mere fact of their caring for the children. And special rights to this connection, having brought the children into the world and nurtured them to this point. Such that were the children to be taken away from they would feel hurt and violated. This is a fact that applies to all normal parents. (Hence the validity of the “breaking up the family” feeling.) But perhaps not to you. Perhaps you’ve convinced yourself that your relationship with your children (if indeed you have any) is purely altruistic, as you protect and nurture and prepare them etc., and your own feelings play no part. And that if one day someone showed you that your children could be given a better life by someone else, you would gladly give up your relationship with them - after all, they’re not “yours”. But if this is the case, you are both a great man and an abnormal freak - normal people don’t feel this way. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/107 "2002-11-26T04:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anahita \* > \*\*I’m taking this FROM INFORMATION THEY’VE WRITTEN THEMSELVES. > > JC calls JD’s 12 year old daughter his step-daughter. > > They recently got engaged. \*\* Ok, I am here, as icky as it may be. Some seemed so distressed that we did not show, so I figured I would make 1 appearance. Now Anahita, if you insist on taking information that _we wrote_, let’s make it accurate, ok?! Yes, I am engaged to J\_C. Our daughter is 5 years old. She gets spanked when she doesn’t listen or does something wrong. Dare I say that she has had my hand print on her butt. (I live in northern NJ for those of you who feel the need to call the authorities :rolleyes: ) And if she doesn’t listen, it will happen again. And would you believe that she is a happy child. Amazing, isn’t it. You can usually catch me at the NYC dopefests. A coward I am not. I guess I just don’t have as much time to sit at a computer like some. At least it is refreshing to know that there are reasonable people on this board that do understand how to take something that other posters post. Have fun posting on this silly thread. JD ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/108 "2002-11-26T05:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*Dare I say that she has had my hand print on her butt. (I live in northern NJ for those of you who feel the need to call the authorities :rolleyes: ) \*\* **If you mean that literally** —if you have spanked her hard enough to bruise—then it is only the board policy forbidding posters from asking for or providing personal info, like addresses, that will stop me from calling the authorities. **Do you mean it literally?** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/109 "2002-11-26T05:47:44Z")
Well, a handprint isn’t a bruise. It’s a handprint. With all due respect, I think a lot of you really need to back off. It’s obvious a lot of you who posted here were abused by your parents, and that really sucks. Abusing a kid is pretty much one of the rottenest things a person can do. But not all spanking is abuse, and even not all spanking with implements is abuse. I’m not saying it’s a good idea, and frankly, I don’t even support spanking kids, but y’all need to take a step back and get some perspective. When **Joe** and **Jersey** don’t answer, you call them cowards, and when they do, you jump on them. And, I dunno about New Jersey law, but in NY, even hitting your kid with a belt isn’t abuse unless it inflicts: > [@](#): > > physical injury by other than accidental means, or creates or allows to be created a substantial risk of physical injury by other than accidental means, which would be likely to cause death or serious or protracted disfigurement, or protracted impairment of physical or emotional health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/110 "2002-11-26T06:22:11Z")
I don’t want to enter into the rest of the debate, but I interpreted JD’s “handprint on the butt” as the temporary redness on skin that has recently been struck. It’s the same coloration that shows up when you uncross bare legs or pinch someone’s cheek. Your milage, of course, may vary. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/111 "2002-11-26T06:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **Well, a handprint isn’t a bruise. It’s a handprint.** How the hell do you leave a handprint on skin, other than by bruising it? ---
**Author:** ![Thrasymachus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Thrasymachus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrasymachus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/112 "2002-11-26T06:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpazCat \* > \*\*Of course we should spank our children! THE BIBLE says we “should!” > > To which I say: “THE BIBLE says a lot of stuff. Are you going to call a rabbi in to inspect your home when you get a spot of mildew on the wall? That’s in THE BIBLE too.” (Sorry no chapter’n’verse. I don’t have a Bible handy and no patience to paw through Leviticus trying to find it.) > \*\* Let me offer what I feel is a stronger argument - no disrespect to you, but I’m rather passionate on this issue. A simple, and common interpretation is that this means it’s ok to spank kids. After all, it’s right there in the book! Some folks try to dismiss this stuff by saying: Well, it’s a _shepherd’s_ rod! You know, gently guiding the sheep and all - just a little nudge here and there. But they’re not all that metaphorical here: \*\*“He who loves his son will whip him often, in order that he may rejoice at the way he turns out.” —Sirach 30. 1. \*\* :eek: But a more sophisticated reader would observe that these kinds verses are exclusively in Proverbs and Sirach, where Solomon is giving advice to his son Jeroboam. Assume he followed his father’s advice, note further that his son Nadab (presumably raised by the rod) was so violent and evil that he was assasinated after just two years, with his entire family to boot! Add further that the modern sentiment holds that the eventual result of too much spanking is a violent bullying kid, and, well - that’s a wrap as far as I’m concerned. Besides, most of that section is about pursuing knowledge and insight, it’s more valuable than gold, etc… Funny how that never seems to get quoted much anymore these days, eh? I’ll add the standard disclaimer that I’m an agnostic, and not a christian or theologist - so I’m by no means expert in this stuff at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/113 "2002-11-26T06:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by IzzyR_ > > Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are a lot of horror stories of child abuse, but there are also an awful lot of horror stories of overzealous social workers destroying lives - sometimes literally. Depends on the case. I call fucking bullshit on this one. How about some CITES please, of “overzealous social workers destroying lives.” ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/114 "2002-11-26T09:13:47Z")
You need a cite for social workers overstepping their bounds? Fine. Read [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2632320#post2632320), where cessandra says: > [@](#): > > …It’s bringing up some concerns especially because [CPS has knocked on my door before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=127833). and > [@](#): > > …but I have seen video of CPS physically ripping a baby from his mother without a warrant, and without any reason that I could see… Sounds a bit over fucking zealous, doesn’t it? “Call fucking bullshit” all you want, but without **EVIDENCE** that we are causing harm to her, the government and straight dope can mind their own fucking business regarding the way we raise our child. And the day somebody shows up at my door attempting to take our daughter, God help 'em, because they’ll be earning their pay. As I said before, my responsibilities to my God and my family outweigh my responsibility to the law, and they sure as hell outweigh my responsibility to explain myself to a bunch of anonymous asshat (that’s the preferred, “moderator-friendly” insult here, right?) internet busybodies. How’s that? And how do you get a handprint without a bruise? Have you really never had a mark that was not a bruise? What the hell, did you grow up in a box, or do you have hemophilia? I guess that’s what happens when your only form of discipline is being locked in your room or getting a disapproving look…you grow up thin-skinned and bruise easily, right? :rolleyes: Well, here you go: it looks like a red raised area, slightly swollen and very sensitive and painful. Rather like a welt, but in the shape of a hand. I do apologize for my language, but you people seem to miss entire sentences if they don’t have cursing in them. Anyway, that’s my final statement on the matter. Enjoy your flame party. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/115 "2002-11-26T11:09:48Z")
I’m sorry **Jersey Diamond** for my mistake in the age of your daughter. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/116 "2002-11-26T11:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > …but I have seen video of CPS physically ripping a baby from his mother without a warrant, and without any reason that I could see… this is not a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/117 "2002-11-26T11:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\* Well, here you go: it looks like a red raised area, slightly swollen and very sensitive and painful. Rather like a welt, but in the shape of a hand. \*\* That shouldn’t happen either. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/118 "2002-11-26T11:38:47Z")
Googled ‘protection’ ‘child’ and ‘overzealous’ and this was the first site: [http://www.childprotectionreform.org/links/Weblinks.html](http://www.childprotectionreform.org/links/Weblinks.html) It has links to about 50 different sites, including a number of academic journals. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/119 "2002-11-26T12:06:35Z")
I don’t think Cessandra’s story counts as a cite either. As humiliating and stressful her visit from CPS was, it neither ripped her family apart nor ruined their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/120 "2002-11-26T13:22:41Z")
Just to include actual facts in this whole argument, here is a list of each state’s statutes wrt child abuse and neglect. It’s a pdf document, so bewarned. [http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/stats02/define.pdf](http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/stats02/define.pdf) I am IN NO WAY implying or insinuating that anyone here (SDMB) or anyone who has taken part in this thread is a perpetrator of either crime. I’m merely providing information to put this subject in context. I actually find it interesting how very different each state’s definition of abuse can me. Some states (it’s a 131 pg document, so I didn’t c and p any of it) include exemptions for corporal punishment and others do not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=7)