# Joe\_Cool and Jersey Diamond - Match Made In Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214 "2002-11-22T19:43:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/121 "2002-11-26T13:29:05Z")
OOps, I also forgot to add that most states have a provision and definition of “false accusations” or “false reporting” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/122 "2002-11-26T14:06:43Z")
**Rilchiam** : Simmer down. Reasonable people don’t tell other parents how to raise their kids unless it clearly violates the law, so if you were to call anyone, based on this information, the only criminal they would catch would be you, for false accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/123 "2002-11-26T14:10:03Z")
Simmer down yourself. I already said I don’t have **JD** ’s personal info. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/124 "2002-11-26T14:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > I call fucking bullshit on this one. How about some CITES please, of “overzealous social workers destroying lives.” Actually, I made my statements based more on cases I am familiar with and news stories I’ve seen over the years. But I see that **Sublight** has provided links to more than enough cites to satisfy your request. I did a quick search myself and came up with [this](http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume5/j5_2_6.htm) description of the Social Services scene in Florida that is along the lines of what I’ve seen. Of course, if you happen to be, say, married to a social worker, you might have a different perspective. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/125 "2002-11-26T16:27:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > Actually I think your comments are pretty inane in their own right. So kids are not ours to exploit or treat as objects? A revolutionary concept - sure to enlighten many posters. Well, since you said that **everyone** regarded their children as property, it must be, don’t’cha think? Nice go at trying to have it both ways, though. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Here’s the secret. Nobody has introduced any evidence - nor have I seen any - that JC & JD regard children as objects to be exploited. The issue has not been brought up in this thread, or in any related thread, AFAIK. It was brought up by **you** , yesterday, in this thread. > [@](#): > > What I was discussing was whether people think of their children as “theirs” in that they have a special bond and connection with them that goes beyond the mere fact of their caring for the children. And special rights to this connection, having brought the children into the world and nurtured them to this point. Well, duh. But you sure picked a bizarre and unrecognizable way of expressing that idea. So don’t jump all over me for misinterpreting you, when your wording begged to be misinterpreted. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you’ve convinced yourself that your relationship with your children (if indeed you have any) is purely altruistic, as you protect and nurture and prepare them etc., and your own feelings play no part. And that if one day someone showed you that your children could be given a better life by someone else, you would gladly give up your relationship with them - after all, they’re not “yours”. But if this is the case, you are both a great man and an abnormal freak - normal people don’t feel this way. Just because you clearly said X while you now claim you meant Y (and got pissed at being misread), doesn’t mean you have to make a fiction of **my** words, too. Kindly go soak your head in a bucket of horseshit, **Izzy** , because that’s all that’s coming out of your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/126 "2002-11-26T16:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > She gets spanked when she doesn’t listen or does something wrong. > Dare I say that she has had my hand print on her butt. (I live in northern NJ for those of you who feel the need to call the authorities :rolleyes: ) And if she doesn’t listen, it will happen again. > \*\* 1. Doesn’t listen? That gets a spanking? Yikes. She’s five? Not listening is par for the course. And your first reaction is a spanking? Good god. 2. Once again, both Joe\_Cool and Jersey Diamond dance carefully away from the fact that a lot of us said an open hand spank on the ass is ok. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW JERSEY, IS THIS: When your child ‘doesn’t listen’ or does something wrong what will you do when Mr. Joe\_Cool takes off his belt and whips her until she can’t sit down? NOT SPANKING. NOT SPANKING. NOT SPANKING. WHIPPING A CHILD UNTIL THEY CAN’T SIT DOWN. That is the issue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/127 "2002-11-26T17:00:17Z")
What _you’re_ ignoring, **Jarbabyj** is that a couple of folks went apeshit, yes, even over even a simple smack with the hand on the ass. They even threatened to call Child Protection Services – completely fucking insane. What was it, like four posts ago? In the face of that insanity, you now want the J’s to clarify their position so that **Rilchiam** can improve the aim of his shotgun accusations? If you want anybody to clarify anything, they have a GD thread where you can ask if they horsewhip their kids on a daily basis, or whatever straw colossus you want to build, and they even have _gasp_ e-mail, if you actually want answers instead of a podium on which to flay past demons. This thread started ugly and shrill, and it’s **going fucking further downhill.** I strongly recommend we all take a deep breath, and let the thread die before the moderators do it for us, because ain’t nobody looking good here. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/128 "2002-11-26T17:04:48Z")
Guess what, Ace, if she clarifies that she thinks belt beating is ok for a five year old child with a short attention span who isn’t listening; I’ll get in line right behind Rilicham. Funny that ugly and shrill should be something that bothers YOU Ace ol’ pal. J ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/129 "2002-11-26T17:06:34Z")
This shit about kids running wild if they’re not physically disciplined is utter bull. I was hit as a child, not abuse but spanked. Sometimes hard. I was caned in school and hit with a leather strap by Christians Brothers. I had one fuck of a teacher that pulled you out of the desk by the hair and kicked the shit out of you in a corner. One time he broke the nose of a kid in my class(The kid told his mother he was in a fight, strange the way we never told on him thinking back on it). Ah Ireland the land of welcomes and Catholic twisted bastards with power over children. It didn’t taint my live or fuck me up. **All it did was teach me not to get caught the next time.** BTW a whole class of 17-18 year old rugby players met that teacher one day after class. He transferred to another school the next day and by all accounts was in a pretty bad way when the class was finished with him. … Good. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/130 "2002-11-26T17:07:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Joe\_Cool** _ > > … without **EVIDENCE** that we are causing harm to her, the government and straight dope can mind their own fucking business regarding the way we raise our child. Then stop posting your fucking business on a public message board. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > … my responsibilities to my God and my family outweigh my responsibility to the law… Another Waco in the making. Charming. > [@](#): > > … and they sure as hell outweigh my responsibility to explain myself to a bunch of anonymous asshat (that’s the preferred, “moderator-friendly” insult here, right?) internet busybodies. Again, perhaps posting on public message boards isn’t the right venue for you, since you seem to take offense at people actually responding to things you write on a - this is the important part here - _public message board_. Whiner. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/131 "2002-11-26T17:10:29Z")
There’s no debate here anymore people. Joe\_Cool and Jersey Diamond see nothing wrong with beating a defenceless child with a belt. There is a statement all parties can agree with. Take your own conclusions from that. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/132 "2002-11-26T17:17:18Z")
**RTFirefly,** The term “regard like possessions” does not clearly mean that they are possessions that can be used or exploited. Something can certainly be like a possession in that you have rights and connections to as one has with regards to a possession. It _could_ refer to something that you can exploit. But there’s no excuse for not following the thread. What I said was in response to a post by jarbaby. I meant my words in the context of her post, and made this additionally clear in my own. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > I informed Jersey that I’d be MORE than willing to listen to her glorious child beating stories face to face, and I’d have NO QUALMS AT ALL with calling child services…something Joe\_Cool referred to as ‘breaking up a family’. > > It sounds to me like they regard children like possessions. Now I understood this last sentence to be a reference to the rest of the post, to Joe Cool’s outrage at her calling child services and “breaking up a family”. Not a reference to exploiting, which has not been an issue here or in related threads, as mentioned. And my response made this clear. It went, in total. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > Everyone does. > > I understand you are trying to have a child of your own. When and if you do, get back to us with how you feel about people who disagree with your parental decisions ‘breaking up a family’. Clearly, what was being addressed was the feelings someone would have at the breaking up of a family. (Of course, you cleverly left off the second paragraph, to help you in your apparent purpose of twisting the context and giving you the opportunity for a nasty response.) I think anyone following the discussion should be clear as to what I meant. It is certainly not clear that I said the opposite, as you claim. I can’t say for sure that your distortion was deliberate. Still, if you are going to go out and be a jerk about it, a bit more caution might be warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/133 "2002-11-26T17:29:33Z")
Sublight’s cite is a fucking joke. It links to a bunch of pro-spanking sites which contain largely anecdotal and unsupported stories about “out-of-control” social workers. Some of the links don’t even work. Some of them link to tepid new stories about false accusations of abuse, not by social workers, but by others. The SW’s investigate and find nothing. Whoop-de-fucking-do. One of the links actually tries to make a martyr out of Madyline Toogood. That should show you what kind of agenda Sublight’s site is pushing. IzzyR’s link is about the laws in Florida. It states that most investigations by CPS do not find abuse, but so what? If anything, this shows that they are NOT overzealous. Izzy’s cite discusses reforming some of the laws about what should trigger an investigation but it does not provide evidence of “overzealous social workers destroying lives.” I AM married to a social worker, but she is not involved with investigating child abuse allegations. I had a little experience with CPS as a mandated reporter working with children, and it was actually pretty difficult to get them to investigate a case. I once had a grandmother come to pick up a seven year old boy from my day camp. When he started mouthing off to her, she picked up a stick from the ground and began chasing him down the street with it. He ran away and she dropped the stick. The rest of the staff and I were concerned about it so we called CPS. They said they could not investigate unless we actually saw the grandmother _connect_ with the stick. (she was swinging it at his head) There is actually a pretty stringent set of conditions which must be in place to trigger an investigation (at least in Minnesota) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/134 "2002-11-26T17:36:38Z")
Well then, **Jarbabyj** , you’ve basically admitted to running a kangaroo court, haven’t you? And apparently, you’re quite excellent at multitasking: you get to be both prosecutor, judge – and **Rilchiam** gets to be the hangman. That’s pretty goddamn ugly and shrill, and yes, witch hunts do bothers me, as it should all of us. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/135 "2002-11-26T19:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Sublight’s cite is a fucking joke. It links to a bunch of pro-spanking sites which contain largely anecdotal and unsupported stories about “out-of-control” social workers. Some of the links don’t even work. Some of them link to tepid new stories about false accusations of abuse, not by social workers, but by others. The SW’s investigate and find nothing. Whoop-de-fucking-do. One of the links actually tries to make a martyr out of Madyline Toogood. That should show you what kind of agenda Sublight’s site is pushing. > > IzzyR’s link is about the laws in Florida. It states that most investigations by CPS do not find abuse, but so what? If anything, this shows that they are NOT overzealous. Izzy’s cite discusses reforming some of the laws about what should trigger an investigation but it does not provide evidence of “overzealous social workers destroying lives.” Maybe I’m a bit unclear as to what you want in the way of cites for this “fucking bullshit”. What is it that you want beyond “anecdotal and unsupported stories”? All I’m claiming is that there are such social workers, not that all social workers are evil. (Also, what does “unsubstantiated” mean, beyond the fact that you personally don’t believe it?) As for my cite, here’s an example of the description I am talking about: > [@](#): > > HRS has all power and authority over whether to remove children solely on an allegation made to the abuse hotline. The justification for this is called “erring on the side of the child.” With the definition of abuse and neglect so vaguely defined by current law, nearly all children at some time in their lives can fall into one or several categories of being abused or neglected. > [@](#): > > It has been found that HRS workers frequently take children from their parents with little or no evidence, but only a suspicion that abuse might have occurred. > [@](#): > > After the initial interview the case worker has 30 days to complete the investigation and classify the case. There are four types of classifications: unfounded, closed without classification, proposed confirmed, and confirmed. Bob Horner, a Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services subdistrict administrator, stated, "HRS is not bound by that (the 30 day rule). We can go as long as it takes to make a case (Pride, p.71). Horner observes that during that time, parents have absolutely no rights. > [@](#): > > Children are traumatized when they are separated from their parents (Close, 1992; Ostalkiewicz, 1991). If abruptly removed and placed in foster care they are likely to be terrified and may suffer severe emotional distress and depression. Despite this, according to the data collected for the federal government by the American Humane Association, it appears that up to half of the children placed in foster care were in no immediate danger of serious physical injury (Besharov, 1988). See also, from the same source (mostly concerning sexual abuse): [Identifying and Dealing with "Child Savers](http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume10/j10_1.htm), and [Assessing the Costs of False Allegations of Child Abuse: A Prescriptive](http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume9/j9_3_2.htm) (BTW, I can’t vouch for who this outfit is - never heard of them until I started looking around for some cites. But, as mentioned, they confirm the sense I get from following the news and RL developments). Here’s [another article](http://www.cpswatch.com/reports/nccan.htm), admittedly from an advocacy group. And, of specific reference to this thread, see: [Child Abuse or Discipline?](http://www.tcbchronicles.com/0700/discipline.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/136 "2002-11-26T20:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > **RTFirefly,** > > The term “regard like possessions” does not clearly mean that they are possessions that can be used or exploited. In general, possessions **are** things that you can use any way you please. While there are exceptions (which generally bugs the hell out of property-rights conservatives, which is to say almost all conservatives), a possession is something that exists for and at your pleasure. If I want to throw my big-screen TV off the balcony, it’s nobody’s business but my own. So I don’t think I was out of line in interpreting ‘regard like possessions’ as along those lines. > [@](#): > > Something can certainly be like a possession in that you have rights and connections to as one has with regards to a possession. It _could_ refer to something that you can exploit. But there’s no excuse for not following the thread. I’ve _been_ following the thread, and exploitability is _normative_ of possessions. > [@](#): > > What I said was in response to a post by jarbaby. I meant my words in the context of her post, and made this additionally clear in my own. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > > I informed Jersey that I’d be MORE than willing to listen to her glorious child beating stories face to face, and I’d have NO QUALMS AT ALL with calling child services…something Joe\_Cool referred to as ‘breaking up a family’. > > > > It sounds to me like they regard children like possessions. This may surprise you, but I read that post too. I don’t see how that changes anything. **jarbaby** said she’d call child services if she were presented with evidence of child beating, and meantioned that **Joe\_Cool** equated that with ‘breaking up a family’, a false equation. > [@](#): > > Now I understood this last sentence to be a reference to the rest of the post I understood it to refer to **Joe** ’s and **Jersey** ’s general attitude on the subject. Since the first couple times I heard the claim that parents ‘own’ their children, it was from the Exalted Grand Wizard, Jerry Falwell, this was the sort of thing I was taking as the context of **jar** ’s remark. What we’re talking about here is a difference in fundamental attitudes about children, between the religious-right types and normal human beings, that has existed for a long time. If you view children as property, as owned by the parents, you’re going to see issues of child abuse and child protection in very different ways than if you view children as a trust, rather than as property. > [@](#): > > Clearly, what was being addressed was the feelings someone would have at the breaking up of a family. (Of course, you cleverly left off the second paragraph, to help you in your apparent purpose of twisting the context and giving you the opportunity for a nasty response.) I read that paragraph as a separate comment, returning to the initial quote rather than continuing your response to the second quote. Why? Because it didn’t seem to relate in any way to the question of regarding one’s children as property. The notion that a representative of the state should have the power to break up a family over a disagreement in parenting decisions is in no way a logical consequence of failing to believe that children are property. > [@](#): > > I think anyone following the discussion should be clear as to what I meant. I’m glad you’ve cleared up what you _did_ mean, but objecting to a habit of whipping children with a belt goes a bit beyond a mere disagreement in parenting decisions. > [@](#): > > I can’t say for sure that your distortion was deliberate. If you can’t say what you mean, I can’t be responsible for mindreading. > [@](#): > > Still, if you are going to go out and be a jerk about it, a bit more caution might be warranted. Well, I think _this_ was pretty jerky, as it was in no way implied by what I said: > [@](#): > > Perhaps you’ve convinced yourself that your relationship with your children (if indeed you have any) is purely altruistic, as you protect and nurture and prepare them etc., and your own feelings play no part. And that if one day someone showed you that your children could be given a better life by someone else, you would gladly give up your relationship with them - after all, they’re not “yours”. But if this is the case, you are both a great man and an abnormal freak - normal people don’t feel this way. I guess you think that because I **don’t** believe children should be exploited, I **do** believe they should be moved in and out of families the way utility infielders get shuttled between baseball teams. Yeah, I can see the logic in that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/137 "2002-11-26T20:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > In general, possessions are things that you can use any way you please. I would say it depends on the possession. But in general, when you say “_regard like_ X” it does not necessarily imply that it is like X in every manner - sometimes it might be referring to one particular aspect. This can sometimes be made clear by the context of the discussion, as indeed it was here. > [@](#): > > This may surprise you, but I read that post too. I don’t see how that changes anything. jarbaby said she’d call child services if she were presented with evidence of child beating, and meantioned that Joe\_Cool equated that with ‘breaking up a family’, a false equation. I introduced this to show the context of the possession remark - whether you happen to agree with one or another is irrelevant here. > [@](#): > > I understood it to refer to Joe’s and Jersey’s general attitude on the subject. Since the first couple times I heard the claim that parents ‘own’ their children, it was from the Exalted Grand Wizard, Jerry Falwell, this was the sort of thing I was taking as the context of jar’s remark. > > What we’re talking about here is a difference in fundamental attitudes about children, between the religious-right types and normal human beings, that has existed for a long time. If you view children as property, as owned by the parents, you’re going to see issues of child abuse and child protection in very different ways than if you view children as a trust, rather than as property. So essentially you are saying that despite no actual evidence on the subject, and no direct discussion in these threads, you extrapolated, based on your contemptuous and hateful opinion of religious conservatives, what their “general attitude” would be about matters not being discussed, and interpreted the remarks of others along the same lines. Oh. Glad you could clear that up. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Still, if you are going to go out and be a jerk about it, a bit more caution might be warranted. > > Well, I think this was pretty jerky, as it was in no way implied by what I said > > > [@](#): > > > > Perhaps you’ve convinced yourself that your relationship with your children (if indeed you have any) is purely altruistic, as you protect and nurture and prepare them etc., and your own feelings play no part. And that if one day someone showed you that your children could be given a better life by someone else, you would gladly give up your relationship with them - after all, they’re not “yours”. But if this is the case, you are both a great man and an abnormal freak - normal people don’t feel this way. > > I guess you think that because I don’t believe children should be exploited, I do believe they should be moved in and out of families the way utility infielders get shuttled between baseball teams. > > Yeah, I can see the logic in that. Why the constant need for distortions? Did I advocate moving children in and out of families like utility infielders? I hypothesized a particular circumstance in which _one_ move might be _beneficial_ for a child. This in an effort to demonstrate my point that a normal parent would be pained by this even in such circumstances. This, in turn, demonstrating that normal parents do feel that they have a right to some bond that goes beyond the pure altruism suggested in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/138 "2002-11-26T21:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*Well then, **Jarbabyj** , you’ve basically admitted to running a kangaroo court, haven’t you? And apparently, you’re quite excellent at multitasking: you get to be both prosecutor, judge – and **Rilchiam** gets to be the hangman. > > That’s pretty goddamn ugly and shrill, and yes, witch hunts do bothers me, as it should all of us. \*\* That’s a idiotic comment there **Ace**. Neither **jarbaby** nor **Rilchaim** claim to be able to prosecute. What they do say is that JD and J\_C’s self-described treatment of their daughter is, in their opinion, worthy of investigation by CPS. And, they indicate they are willing to contact CPS. It is then up to CPS to determine if there is, indeed, abuse. If noone is willing to report suspected abuse, then how in the hell is CPS supposed to actually protect children? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/139 "2002-11-26T21:34:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > But in general, when you say “_regard like_ X” it does not necessarily imply that it is like X in every manner - sometimes it might be referring to one particular aspect. It might indeed. But you’ve got to make that clear. > [@](#): > > This can sometimes be made clear by the context of the discussion, as indeed it was here. Making things clear to yourself doesn’t count. > [@](#): > > So essentially you are saying that despite no actual evidence on the subject, and no direct discussion in these threads, you extrapolated, based on your contemptuous and hateful opinion of religious conservatives, what their “general attitude” would be about matters not being discussed, and interpreted the remarks of others along the same lines. Oh. Glad you could clear that up. I would suggest that you don’t have the foggiest idea of the complexities of my attitudes toward conservative Christians, with whom I’ve been rubbing elbows for much of the past three decades - mostly as an adult, and completely voluntary in nature. So I’ll add your remark about my “contemptuous and hateful opinion of religious conservatives” to your list of extrapolative distortions. But I _do_ have some passing familiarity with the culture that J&J swim in, for what that’s worth, and I think applying that understanding to a discussion of their mores makes a good deal more sense than leaving it behind. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I guess you think that because I don’t believe children should be exploited, I do believe they should be moved in and out of families the way utility infielders get shuttled between baseball teams. > > Why the constant need for distortions? Did I advocate moving children in and out of families like utility infielders? I hypothesized a particular circumstance in which _one_ move might be _beneficial_ for a child. Well, let’s roll tape - here’s what you said I was saying: > [@](#): > > And that if one day someone showed you that your children could be given a better life by someone else, you would gladly give up your relationship with them - after all, they’re not “yours”. Better show me where, in my words, _that_ came from. The belief that children are not property in no way implies that there is either no parent-child bond, or that that bond is of no import, one of which was what you were strongly implying that I believed. You suggest that my stance implies that I would gladly give up a child of mine if it could be shown that some other set of parents - call them Couple B - could give that child a marginally better life. And then, of course, they’d have to give the child up up when Couple C showed that they could parent the child slightly better than Couple B, and so forth. Hence the utility-infielder analogy. I think the induction step is implicit in your words. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/140 "2002-11-26T21:41:46Z")
**Homebrew** : Their opinion is thus far, unfounded, unreasonable, and does not match the legal necessities. That they are willing (which is way more important than able) to harass posters with CPS calls based on an agglomeration of tendentious parsing, pure distortion and their own emotional issues is an indication that they are not to be trusted with anything more dangerous than a rusty can opener. That they may be, as per your assertation, an impotent Kangaroo court is irrelevant. In either case, the threatened harassment is still outrageously offensive. -Ace [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=8)