# Joe\_Cool and Jersey Diamond - Match Made In Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214 "2002-11-22T19:43:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/141 "2002-11-26T21:47:49Z")
Perhaps Ace would like to read this whole thread wherein I said IF I MET JERSEY DIAMOND AND SHE TOLD ME A STORY OF WHIPPING HER CHILD, LIVE, RIGHT TO MY FACE, I would call CPS. I never once said I would do it on the basis of what she has typed or said here. Oh look…here’s the quote: > [@](#): > > I’m saying that if presented with the evidence that she was hurting and leaving marks on her child, I would call. She accused those of us who were criticising her of being cowards hiding behind keyboards. I was simply assuring her that I would have no qualms with reporting suspected child abuse IF I SAW ANY EVIDENCE OF IT, like I have done in the past. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/142 "2002-11-26T21:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I would suggest that you don’t have the foggiest idea of the complexities of my attitudes toward conservative Christians, with whom I’ve been rubbing elbows for much of the past three decades - mostly as an adult, and completely voluntary in nature. > > So I’ll add your remark about my “contemptuous and hateful opinion of religious conservatives” to your list of extrapolative distortions. Actually I based this on your own words in the very quote that I commented on. “Exalted Grand Wizard, Jerry Falwell” & “between the religious-right types and normal human beings”. Good enough for me. > [@](#): > > But I _do_ have some passing familiarity with the culture that J&J swim in, for what that’s worth, and I think applying that understanding to a discussion of their mores makes a good deal more sense than leaving it behind. I disagree with this - it is unfair to judge people based on your assumptions about what “people like them” believe, especially if your view of this group is so negative. But more to the point, you cannot assume that other people’s comments are based on your passing familiarity with these people’s views on other issues than the ones at hand. > [@](#): > > Well, let’s roll tape - here’s what you said I was saying:… Better show me where, in my words, _that_ came from. > > The belief that children are not property in no way implies that there is either no parent-child bond, or that that bond is of no import, one of which was what you were strongly implying that I believed. You did not say it outright, nor did I claim you did. Your position as expressed in your first post to this thread implied this. You set up the dichotomy between exploiting children or merely holding in trust, protecting and nurturing etc. and endorsed the latter position for yourself. Thus implying that the non-altruistic aspects were non-existent, and I directed my coments at this implication. > [@](#): > > You suggest that my stance implies that I would gladly give up a child of mine if it could be shown that some other set of parents - call them Couple B - could give that child a marginally better life. > > And then, of course, they’d have to give the child up up when Couple C showed that they could parent the child slightly better than Couple B, and so forth. Hence the utility-infielder analogy. I think the induction step is implicit in your words. I did not say “marginally” - wonder why you felt compelled to add this to my words. Oh, I know why - because this way it’s easier for you to hypothesize about a chain of couples each demanding the child. You never tire of this, do you? The answer, of course, is that to the extent that a utility-infielder existence would itself be damaging to a child, this would itself be an _altruistic_ reason to avoid turning the child over. I was not dealing with the particulars of which type of circumstance would be better for a child - only hypothesizing a theoretical case in which a particular transfer might be to the child’s advantage, such that the altruistic motivation would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/143 "2002-11-26T21:58:07Z")
Wonderful. Since you can’t possibly “see any evidence of it” here, that must mean we can be done with this irrelevant thread. Good riddance, to bad rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/144 "2002-11-26T22:02:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Since you can’t possibly “see any evidence of it” here, that must mean we can be done with this irrelevant thread. How? Surely pitting someone for his objectionable attitudes towards something has a different kind of utility than involving legal authorities. So what if **jar** isn’t going to call CPS based on this thread? Doesn’t make it any less utile. > [@](#): > > Good riddance, to bad rubbish. Too easy, too easy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/145 "2002-11-26T22:22:53Z")
**IzzyR** , Most of what you posted deals with ambiguous laws about what constitutes child abuse or justifies removal from the home. The SW’s in these cases are following the law. I still don’t see an example of social workers setting out to “destroy families” or deliberately removing children from a home if they KNOW there is no abuse. What do you imagine that “overzealous social workers” are motivated by, exactly? Do you think they hate families? Do you think they WANT to traumatize kids if they don’t have to? Do you think they don’t really care about children? What do you imagine they would get out “destroying families?” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/146 "2002-11-26T23:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*Wonderful. > > Since you can’t possibly “see any evidence of it” here, that must mean we can be done with this irrelevant thread. \*\* See, I missed the part where you were made a mod and could tell people when a thread is done. Last I saw, your ass was temp-banned. Did they forget to give you your Mod badge when you came back and also neglect to update your user profile, or are you just being an asshole again? \*\* > [@](#): > > Good riddance, to bad rubbish. \*\* Heh. That’s what most of us said when you were banned. If you don’t like the thread, may I cordially invite you to fuck off? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/147 "2002-11-26T23:14:10Z")
A correction: I don’t speak for “most of us”. Please strike that phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/148 "2002-11-26T23:16:12Z")
Just letting y’all know that I won’t be posting to this thread again because I’m going away for Thanksgiving. Everyone enjoy your turkey, or turducken, or tofurkey, or whatever, and I’ll “see” you on Sunday, or thereabouts. P.S. **Ace** , I’m female. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/149 "2002-11-27T01:02:29Z")
Fenris, I’d call it courageous. It’s not every poster who can stand up for what’s right in the face of such blistering invective. I can only assume this means I’ll be enshrined in one of your magnificent parodies – though I do hope this time it will be _funny_. -Ace ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/150 "2002-11-27T01:19:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > \*\*I’d call it courageous. It’s not every poster who can stand up for what’s right in the face of such blistering invective. \*\* OOOh. You are the martyr, aren’t you? If only Joan of Arc was as brave as you, we’d all be speaking French. Your bravery at defending what is a clear statement in favor of child-abuse is overwhelming. \*\* > [@](#): > > though I do hope this time it will be _funny_. > \*\* Yawn. The ol’ “You’re not _funny_” retort. Not even an \*original \*response. This comment would only be meaningful if I had _any_ respect for you or your opinions. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/151 "2002-11-27T02:07:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Most of what you posted deals with ambiguous laws about what constitutes child abuse or justifies removal from the home. The SW’s in these cases are following the law. I still don’t see an example of social workers setting out to “destroy families” or deliberately removing children from a home if they KNOW there is no abuse. > > What do you imagine that “overzealous social workers” are motivated by, exactly? Do you think they hate families? Do you think they WANT to traumatize kids if they don’t have to? Do you think they don’t really care about children? What do you imagine they would get out “destroying families?” I don’t quite get this sudden focus on _motivations_ of the social workers. This is not the focal point of my comments here. And I certainly don’t get your apparent assumption that I believe that social workers are deliberately removing children from homes in which they KNOW there is no abuse out of a hatred for families or a desire to traumatize kids. If you look at my very first words on the subject here, I said (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > _Well meaning_ people with this attitude have caused a lot of misery in this world. I think that most social workers are sincere and dedicated people, but they are in a difficult situation here. It is their job to protect the kids to the extent possible, but it is generally impossible to know what is truly the best situation for the kids. It is very difficult for an outsider to distinguish between abuse and non-abuse or to fully understand the dynamics of the familial relationship. Or, for that matter, to know what the impact will be of the SW’s own actions (e.g. placement in foster care). So they are really between a rock and a hard place, and there is no doubt that under any conceivable system there will be a lot of times that they will simply guess wrong. However, the important point is to have the right attitude to begin with. If someone started with the attitude that children should _never_ be taken from their parents under any circumstance, they will be certain to allow a lot more harm than is necessary. Similarly, if someone would begin with the assumption that the slightest trace of suspicion is enough to remove the children, they will cause a lot of harm in the other direction. A balance is needed, specifically an appreciation of the true costs and benefits of removing children from harmful situations and of leaving them there. So what I am asserting is that many SWs, however well meaning, do not have the proper balance. Due to training or attitude, they are worked up about the horror of parental child abuse, but do not properly appreciate the hardship of family breakups. These people have “no qualms” about “breaking up a family” – they are conditioned to think or suspect the worst of parents and to think the best of proactive social work. All for the finest motivations. And of course, sometimes there may be room for legitimate disagreement as to the proper methods for child rearing and what constitutes child abuse. Such as we’ve seen in these threads. Unfortunately, even in the abscence of a consensus, an individual SW, backed by the great power of “the system” can sometimes have the final say. If I had to look specifically for negative motivations, I can think of two. One would be the simple lust for power - the desire to determine the direction of the family’s lives. And the other is the idealistic impulse to be a hero and savior. Either of these might conceivably motivate a SW to take a more activist role than pure reason would dictate. I would speculate that both of these may be present to some degree in some cases. _But I don’t know to what extent this is so, and nothing that I’ve said here is in any way dependent on the validity of this speculation_. (I should note that I acknowledge, of course, that there are also horror stories of SWs who were not proactive enough. My criticism of one extreme is not meant to imply that similar criticism cannot be made of the other). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/152 "2002-11-27T03:01:25Z")
**IzzyR** , Individual SW’s do not have the discretion or the authority to remove a child from a home on their own. Guidelines differ from state to state, even county to county, and granted sometimes these guidelines can be vague or poorly written. The vast majority of actual removals of a child from a household, however, must be supported by a judge, and require a hearing beforehand. There are occasional exceptions to these guidelines which allow the temporary removal of a child from a home if there is a clear and immediate danger. (for instance, a toddler left alone at night may be removed until the parent can be located) These removals are supported by law enforcement. CPS workers, on their own, simply do not have the power you ascribe to them. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/153 "2002-11-27T03:22:19Z")
But the SWs undoubtedly weild enormous influence over the ultimate decisions that are made, even if they can’t make them unilaterally. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/154 "2002-11-27T03:55:09Z")
Social workers contribute evidence to the decision-making process. The social worker’s role in CPS is to protect the well-being of the child, not necessarily to advocate for the parents, though often, CPS finds it in the best interest of the child to do so. They may wield “influence,” if by “influence” you mean evidence such as X-rays of broken bones, medical evidence of sexual abuse, documentation of failure to thrive in infants, or other substantiation that a child has been neglected or abused. CPS workers are, by the way, some of the most dedicated, competent professionals of any field - they have to be, their job is demanding beyond all reason and the stakes of failure are no less than children’s lives. Individuals stepping into this field of social work practice with some kind of distorted agenda would be unlikely to last beyond their first staff meeting. Signed, Diogenes’wife, a licensed Minnesota social worker. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/155 "2002-11-27T05:33:17Z")
Well, having said that, my wife does concede that the potential for malpractice does exist for CPS workers, but that abuses are not likely to proceed very far. It is a field which is very good at policing itself. There is no “code of silence.” SW’s will not hesitate to rat each other out. SW has one of the most stringent codes of ethics of any profession. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/156 "2002-11-27T11:11:56Z")
Can I ask a question here, of **Joe\_Cool** or **JD** , please. You said… > [@](#): > > Our daughter is 5 years old. > She gets spanked when she doesn’t listen or does something wrong. I’m not in any way judging your parenting skills (like others here), but was curious as to your ideas (and others here), as to what constitutes _‘wrong’_ in your eyes? Would you only punish your daughter for wrong misbehaviours that are _physical_ - i.e. stealing sweets from the local shop, throwing stones at windows etc… Or would you punish for what you may consider _intellectual_ wrongs when she is older: i.e. her choice to become an athiest, for joining the Young Communist Party etc… To what extent would you choose to regulate her behaviour if it differed from your own world views? Thanks for any replies. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/157 "2002-11-27T11:31:25Z")
**Aro** , I would be interested in the answers to your questions as well. IIRC, **JD** said she’d only post once here, so you’re better off asking **JC** (not Jesus Christ, Joe\_Cool). ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/158 "2002-11-27T11:36:12Z")
Just so that I don’t have to do this later: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*Ok, I am here, as icky as it may be. Some seemed so distressed that we did not show, so I figured I would make 1 appearance. > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/159 "2002-11-27T11:52:11Z")
I do not have any children dependant on me, so am in really no position to say what I would do in the situations I outlined above. I have been known to administer a quick slap to kids (my nephews & nieces) for bad behaviour or tantrums when they are in my care, but would never _hurt_ them beyond a quick sharp, shock. Other people vary in the punishment they feel is appropriate to the situation, as has been well documented here. I may not agree but I’m not going to debate that here, as many others are already on that. I spend a lot of my baby-sitting time teaching the children I look after (ages 3, 5, & 7) to enjoy books, think for themselves, look at maps, challenge ideas rather than accepting them, and learning through fun research, experiments and play. We build, cook, examine, and I answer all questions as best I can. (Which can be very tough - that’s where SD helps ;)). I feel this side of their learning is important as my sister has little time for this side of things with the children, as she takes care of the practical feeding. cleaning, shopping and clothing of the kids. So, I would happily support their choice to believe in something other than the standard line they are taught in school, as long as they can back it up with ideas of their own. I would never force or beat an idea into a child to encourage him/her to think a certain way. If you raise the child right, the moral / ethical behaviour should be in place regardless, and should not need to be enforced, IMHO. Therefore, ideas, beliefs or life-philosophies are free ground for the children to explore. (Of course it will be a good few years yet before they _do_ feel the need to think for themselves, but I (hopefully) will be there to encourage and support them). I would accept any choice they make as long as they are happy in themselves making it. And the same would go for my own kids, when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214/160 "2002-11-27T11:59:05Z")
The above post was in reply to a mis-reading of **Anahitas** post, which I thought was asking for **my** answers to my questions as well. Doh! Oh well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joe_cool-and-jersey-diamond-match-made-in-hell/138214.md?page=9)