# Johanna, enough already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155 "2006-01-22T21:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/101 "2006-01-24T02:09:10Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Just a thought. Flame if you must. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don’t know that it’s really quite offensive to address females - particularly females who have made it completely clear that they no longer want to be regarded as males - by masculine pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/102 "2006-01-24T02:14:30Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > **Johanna** has come to terms with his life. He went to college… I believe the convention here is to refer to the trans person by the pronoun they prefer to use themselves, which in this case is ‘she’. This is regardless of the efficacy or otherwise of any hormone treatment. Of course, taking a lead from those who have even in this thread fought to uphold the right of each individual to be different and express things in their own way according to their own light, you may choose to resist and contest what you see as naturalizing and hegemonic “straight dope” conventions. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/103 "2006-01-24T02:38:28Z")
I won’t call him/her “him” or “her” until she/he tells me what he/she prefers. Haven’t seen a preference here, so I defaulted to what I’ve taken as a majority of posts referring to him/her as a male. Is this really an issue? Whether I refer to him/her as “him” or “her”? Doesn’t matter to me. Again, I insult the sensibilities of some. You go ahead and tell me how I should refer to **Johanna** IRT gender and I’ll follow suit. God forbid I get that wrong. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/104 "2006-01-24T02:39:31Z")
Yes, it’s really an issue, and I haven’t seen her refer to herself as a he since she came out. ---
**Author:** ![Atheist\_Princess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@Atheist\_Princess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atheist_Princess)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/105 "2006-01-24T03:03:14Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Most of us don’t care if you’re TS, Bi, gay or whatever. Just quit bringing it up at every opportunity. We’re not trying to shout you down. We get it. The only other option would be to accept it and have every straight Doper (that was punny!) mention their orientation in every other post. > > If you are truly comfortable with who you are, you won’t need to remind us of who you are so often. My opinion exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/106 "2006-01-24T03:07:03Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I can honestly say I only know of **Johanna** from a post or two and don’t remember anything that would set me off. And I had no clue about the TS aspect, so take that into consideration. > > Based on the quoted lines in the OP, I’d offer my opinion on the seeming dearth of posts by him/her regarding the matter in all forms open. > > “Matrilineal” and “Patrilineal”. > > Now honestly, are these concepts in everyday parlance? I have no idea the actual circumstances of his life, but here’s what it seems to be. > > **Johanna** has come to terms with **his** life. **He** went to college and took a few sociology courses that introduced some new concepts and ran with them. Nothing wrong with that, it is the case with a great number of students. What **he** failed to do is apply these concepts to the real world and how they may or may not be pertinent in real life. **He** fails to see, at least so far if my guess is correct, is that what you see as theoretical Nirvana in a classroom, doesn’t have anything to do with who you are as a person. Nor what responsibilities you have when you leave the class. The world is not there to conform to what you want it to be. Self-awareness is great, but when you expect everyone else to follow your rules, you’re setting yourself up for guaranteed disappointment. > > Again, I may be way off base and **I mean no disrespect**. But based on the use of those two words alone, it would appear our dear friend has gotten a little enthusiastic about **his** idealism. > > Most of us don’t care if you’re TS, Bi, gay or whatever. Just quit bringing it up at every opportunity. We’re not trying to shout you down. We get it. The only other option would be to accept it and have every straight Doper (that was punny!) mention their orientation in every other post. > > **If you are truly comfortable with who you are, you won’t need to remind us of who you are so often.** (bolding mine) It might be easier to get comfortable with one’s self if others _respected_ how one chooses to identify. Could you BE any more disrespectful??? ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/107 "2006-01-24T03:08:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Is this really an issue? Whether I refer to him/her as “him” or “her”? Doesn’t matter to me. Again, I insult the sensibilities of some. You go ahead and tell me how I should refer to Johanna IRT gender and I’ll follow suit. Don’t be a jackass. Obviously gender and its classification is important to many transgendered people or they wouldn’t be transgendered. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/108 "2006-01-24T03:15:38Z")
For godsakes, **duffer** , I think it’s obvious by now that **Johanna** would prefer to be called “she”. Don’t be such a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/109 "2006-01-24T03:36:11Z")
Well, it’s obvious from **Duffer** ’s past posts that she doesn’t know better, and that she doesn’t care whether or not she offends anyone. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/110 "2006-01-24T03:45:41Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Well, it’s obvious from **Duffer** ’s past posts that she doesn’t know better, and that she doesn’t care whether or not she offends anyone. I thought Polycarp was a man? Not saying he’s got no balls too?! ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/111 "2006-01-24T03:54:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > For godsakes, **duffer** , I think it’s obvious by now that **Johanna** would prefer to be called “she”. > > Don’t be such a jackass. The fact I never knew about the issue before this thread means I’m a prick for not knowing whether to use “he” or “she”? Did anyone notice where I mentioned there were limited contacts with said Doper? I was offering what I interpreted based on the wording of the post in quoted in the OP. The gender preference in reference may be obvious to most of you, less so for me. (And if it was obviously stated in other interactions, it didn’t make an indelible impression as it may have with the rest of you). But if anyone wants to take issue with it, have at it. The cliques around here are more ingrained than junior high kids. I’ve gotten used to it. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/112 "2006-01-24T03:57:40Z")
> [@Lama Pacos](#): > > Don’t be a jackass. Obviously gender and its classification is important to many transgendered people or they wouldn’t be transgendered. Then call me a janeass. How do you know what I feel about gender identity? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Atheist\_Princess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@Atheist\_Princess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atheist_Princess)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/113 "2006-01-24T05:27:17Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Then call me a janeass. How do you know what I feel about gender identity? :dubious: Thats a fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/114 "2006-01-24T05:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Antinor01 > Quite honestly, who would be better at pointing out where we make assumptions about gender and identity roles than a TG person? > [@](#): > > Johanna can’t speak for all TG people. As I understand it, she identifies as transsexual which means she is probably qualified to talk about those issues, but by her own admission, she can not discuss all the issues pertaining to TG people. She “doesn’t get” transvestites. Not all transsexuals understand or accept genderqueers, in fact, there is a considerable proportion who hate that term, don’t understand them, and would be offended if you referred to them as such. I didn’t say she could speak for all, nor did I say or assume that she would ‘get’ everyone. I also didn’t say that she would be able to speak to all issues that every GLBTQTSTVTGIS and however many letters there are now, people. I was simply using her as an example of someone with a (to most of us) unique perspective that would challenge a lot of assumptions people tend to go through life with. Hell even as a gay male I need to be challenged on my gender/identity assumptions, especially when I don’t realize they are there. Forgive me for trying to make a positive point about someone. :dubious: Russell ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/115 "2006-01-24T06:38:43Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I didn’t say [Johanna] could speak for all, nor did I say or assume that she would ‘get’ everyone…I was simply using her as an example of someone with a (to most of us) unique perspective that would challenge a lot of assumptions people tend to go through life with. Of course, since she has never been of male gender, merely a woman inhabiting a man’s body, Johanna would not be able to speak as a man, or from a man’s standpoint. So, she is in fact like the rest of us, not really “special” at all. Which, is, I am sure, just how she would like it. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155/116 "2006-01-24T06:55:25Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I believe the convention here is to refer to the trans person by the pronoun they prefer to use themselves, which in this case is ‘she’. Even a lot of male cross-dresses wish to be called “she” while in women’s clothing. Or what about the people who prefer to be called by “hir,” “ze,” and that other crap? Even if you try to be as PC as entirely possible you will still offend someone. 😃 > [@roger thornhill](#): > > Of course, since she has never been of male gender, merely a woman inhabiting a man’s body, Johanna would not be able to speak as a man, or from a man’s standpoint. So, she is in fact like the rest of us, not really “special” at all. Which, is, I am sure, just how she would like it. That’s it, I’m buying you a drink. > [@duffer](#): > > If you are truly comfortable with who you are, you won’t need to remind us of who you are so often. I completely agree. Johanna, you are trying too hard, stop trying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johanna-enough-already/341155.md?page=5)