# Johm Kerry: Evil sez Drudge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249 "2004-08-04T04:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/121 "2004-08-05T23:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > “…Kerry and the other wounded men received medical attention aboard a Coast Guard cutter, which was the closest ship capable of treating them. Along with a third Purple Heart for the injury to his right arm, Kerry was also awarded a Bronze Star for his bravery, as was Larry Thurlow…” Here’s a link to the article. Thurlow is an out and out liar. [http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html](http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html) ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/122 "2004-08-06T01:27:03Z")
I am not a mathematician, but something about your number-crunching doesn’t…well…“add-up.” > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Fifth, flying F-102 fighters, even outside of combat, was hella dangerous. Bush was at more risk of being killed doing that than he was of being killed as a draftee sent to Vietnam. In fact, two of Bush’s squadron mates were killed in flying accidents. > > From [this cite](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1989/KJJ.htm), 27 F-102’s were lost to accidents in the first 90,000 hours of flight, for a loss rate of one aircraft for every 3,333 flight hours. These are accidental, mind you - not combat losses. > > snip… > So Bush had anywhere from a 1 in 10 chance of being killed during his guard tour to maybe one in three. So you take 90,000, divide by 27 and get roughly 1 lost plan for every 3,333. Simple math, which only calculates the average lifetime of the 27 aircraft _which crashed_!!! No further information can be extrapolated from these numbers. A more accurate assessment of the dangers would be to divide all non-combat crashes for all aircraft for a given number of hours of flight. I think your numbers would change rather significantly. > [@](#): > > Now let’s look at the stats for Navy service. The Navy suffered 1,628 combat deaths during Vietnam out of about 47,000 total hostile deaths - the lowest total for any branch of the service. Since that was over a space of ten years, that’s about 1,600 casualties per year, out of a total of several hundred thousand active Navy personnel. huh? 1,628 combat deaths/10 years = ~1,600 deaths per year? What is the difference between a “hostile” death and a “combat” death? Not being snarky, just curious. > [@](#): > > the lowest total for any branch of the service . totals != rate You calculate the odds for President Bush using numbers specific to a select subset (pilots), yet you calculate the odds for Senator Kerry by using numbers for the entire Navy -which includes, I presume, supply ships, aircraft carriers, submarines oilers/tenders and _lots_ of personnel stationed safely out of harms way. Finally, I note that in calculating the odds, you did not include non-combat deaths, nor injuries. I’m just spitballing, but I think the contribution of these would be nominal (minimal?) when applied to the Texas Air National Guard, but would have a significant impact for service on a swiftboat in Vietnam It’s bad enough comparing apples to grapefruits; it’s pointless to compare apples to basketballs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/123 "2004-08-06T01:34:26Z")
Bah…statistically speaking, Shrub put himself (and others) more at risk by driving around loaded than he did by taking some flying lessons. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/124 "2004-08-06T01:38:51Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > From [this cite](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1989/KJJ.htm), 27 F-102’s were lost to accidents in the first 90,000 hours of flight… Maybe it’s because I’m on an old Mac, but the link you provided was very, very badly formatted. A search for “F-102” (I also tried searching for “102”) came up empty. Are you sure that’s the right URL? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/125 "2004-08-06T01:50:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Don’t be so sure. Atwater literally repented and asked forgiveness on his deathbed. That doesn’t happen only in sappy movies. If only others would follow his example, even without the deathbed. No, that’s all right. They can do the deathbed. As a matter of fact, I insist. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/126 "2004-08-06T04:41:07Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > Maybe it’s because I’m on an old Mac, but the link you provided was very, very badly formatted. A search for “F-102” (I also tried searching for “102”) came up empty. Are you sure that’s the right URL? footnote #7 ? ```auto 7 P.T. Bingham, Lt Col, USAF, "Improving Force Flexibil- ity Through V/STOL," Air University Review, (January-February, 1985). AIRCRAFT LOSSES AIRCRAFT TYPE FIRST 90000 HOURS FIRST 213000 HOURS AV-8A 25 50 (Includes A-4 37 64 RAF) A-7 37 73 F-8 44 79 A-6 16 33 F-4 17 44 F-100 39 78 **F-102 27 38** F-104 43 88 F-105 31 47 F-106 15 26 A-10 08 17 F-15 04 15 F-16 10 30 ``` ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/127 "2004-08-06T06:23:29Z")
Today’s Salon has more in [a column by Joe Conason on the latest effort to smear Kerry and his war record.](http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/08/06/mccain_on_swift_boat_veterans/index.html) (However, if you read it, you’ll have to see an ad first.) Much of it is a review of what he reported last Spring when this campaign first oozed up out of the the bowels of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/128 "2004-08-06T07:06:57Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > footnote #7 ? Note that **Sam** conveniently failed to note that in the 123k hours following the first 90k hours, the 102 only had 11 losses, less than half the loss rate he rather misleadingly cited. And Bush was by no means flying the Delta Dart as it entered service. It had been phased out of the Air Force before he started, and was being phased out of the ANG by the time he lost his flying status. There’s been no data whatsoever presented about the rate of 102 losses during the time W was flying, nor any data about how much time he actually spent in one. So we really have no reason to believe **Sam** ’s assertion that Bush was placing himself in any significant danger, beyond the general note that flying fighters isn’t the safest pursuit around. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/129 "2004-08-06T07:25:41Z")
Honestly, I didn’t even notice that. It’s a fair point, so maybe the odds against bush were more like 1 in 20 or 1 in 30. That still makes it one of the more dangerous ways to spend your time in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/130 "2004-08-06T13:25:35Z")
Fuzzy math. Actually, GWB chose one of the very safest ways he could to ride out the war. Just admit it. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/131 "2004-08-06T13:42:51Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Honestly, I didn’t even notice that. It’s a fair point, so maybe the odds against bush were more like 1 in 20 or 1 in 30. That still makes it one of the more dangerous ways to spend your time in the military. As long as you’re pulling things out of your ass, keep an eye out for a remote control for a Sony, would’ja? I haven’t seen it for weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/132 "2004-08-06T13:42:54Z")
Why don’t you admit, **Diogenes** , that it would have been far safer for Bush had he joined a regular Army National Guard unit, rather than flying an older, rather temperamental jet fighter. Several members of the Texas Air National Guard were killed in jet crashes while Bush served with them. I’ve never claimed Bush to be any kind of war hero, and neither has he. But his military service did have some attendant risk. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/133 "2004-08-06T14:09:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ve never claimed Bush to be any kind of war hero, and neither has he. But his military service did have some attendant risk. Don’t pilots get all the girls? I’ve heard those jets referred to as “Sky penises.” That’s **some risk** George took. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/134 "2004-08-06T14:37:56Z")
One of Kerry’s critics is now retracting his statement: > **[Veteran retracts criticism of Kerry](http://archive.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/)** > > WASHINGTON -- A week after Senator John F. Kerry heralded his wartime experience by surrounding himself at the Democratic convention with his Vietnam ''Band of Brothers," a separate group of veterans has launched a television ad campaign and a book... > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – A week after Senator John F. Kerry heralded his wartime experience by surrounding himself at the Democratic convention with his Vietnam ''Band of Brothers," a separate group of veterans has launched a television ad campaign and a book that questions the basis for some of Kerry’s combat medals. > > But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry’s former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star – one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book. > > Elliott is quoted as saying that Kerry ''lied about what occurred in Vietnam . . . for example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back." > > The statement refers to an episode in which Kerry killed a Viet Cong soldier who had been carrying a rocket launcher, part of a chain of events that formed the basis of his Silver Star. Over time, some Kerry critics have questioned whether the soldier posed a danger to Kerry’s crew. Crew members have said Kerry’s actions saved their lives. > > Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star. > > ''I still don’t think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I’m the one in trouble here." > > Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That’s no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake." ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/135 "2004-08-06T21:09:50Z")
Perhaps I’m not all that bright but there’s something about SBVT’s charges against Kerry that has me puzzled. If the claims about Kerry’s heroism being falsified are true, who else was in on the medal scam and why? When Kerry was in Vietnam, he just an unknown enlistee. Nobody knew he was going to run for President 35 years later. What motivation would Kerry’s superiors in the Navy have for awarding him medals he may have not deserved? And, if this is such a big scandal that reveals the inherently deceitful nature of Kerry’s character, why hasn’t anyone said anything about it until very recently? I’m not from Massachusetts, but why didn’t these charges come up when Kerry ran for the Senate in 1984 or during his subsequent campaigns for re-election? I would think that if there were any real substance to these claims, at least one opponent wouldn’t hesitate to use them. The SBVT’s anti-Kerry campaign is bollocks, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/136 "2004-08-06T21:22:48Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > And, if this is such a big scandal that reveals the inherently deceitful nature of Kerry’s character, why hasn’t anyone said anything about it until very recently? I’m not from Massachusetts, but why didn’t these charges come up when Kerry ran for the Senate in 1984 or during his subsequent campaigns for re-election? I would think that if there were any real substance to these claims, at least one opponent wouldn’t hesitate to use them. Well, as I understand it, nobody bothered to say anything because when Kerry was running for the Senate, he was only affecting the people in his own state. It wasn’t until he ran for President that they (SBVT) felt that he needed a little comeuppance. Because, y’know, nobody gave a damn until he might become president. > [@](#): > > The SBVT’s anti-Kerry campaign is bollocks, plain and simple. Preach it! ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/137 "2004-08-06T21:38:03Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > What motivation would Kerry’s superiors in the Navy have for awarding him medals he may have not deserved? And, if this is such a big scandal that reveals the inherently deceitful nature of Kerry’s character, why hasn’t anyone said anything about it until very recently? The motivation for the statements made in the books and whatnot are motivated by a single factor-the undying memory of actions taken by Kerry after returning from Vietnam held by bitter ex-nam vets who feel slighted by him turning on his brothers. Kinda sad, when you think about it. Also, the SBVT guys have apparently been around since Kerry “outed” his fellow soldiers in the 70’s, so they’re not new, but they’re a fringe group who has finally found the limelight. Sam ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/138 "2004-08-06T22:18:47Z")
This story is hopping all over the place. First, we get the _Boston Globe_ > **[Veteran retracts criticism of Kerry](http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/)** > > WASHINGTON -- A week after Senator John F. Kerry heralded his wartime experience by surrounding himself at the Democratic convention with his Vietnam ''Band of Brothers," a separate group of veterans has launched a television ad campaign and a book... saying that a principal member of the Swifty Boys has retracted a principal claim, that is, that Kerry was unworthy of combat recognition recieved. > [@](#): > > …’'I still don’t think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I’m the one in trouble here." > > Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That’s no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."… Then, the esteemed and impartial (snicker) _Human Events_ comes out with a counter-story. [http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit\_aff.html](http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html) > [@](#): > > …He reaffirms his statement in the current advertisement paid for by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Captain Elliott reaffirms his affidavit in support of that advertisement, and he reaffirms his request that the ad be played… Curioser. If you read the affidavit from Lt. Cmr. Elliott, you came away no more certain. When he says that Kerry was lying about the event in question, he is not stating that the event didn’t happen, he is stating that the detals of the incident are in conflict: i.e., the _posture_ of the armed, wounded and fleeing Viet Cong. Was he, in fact, turned or turning forward to bring his weapon to bear, or was he simply fleeing and was shot in the back by Kerry. Further, Lt. Cmdr. Edwards reveals that he has no personal knowledge of the incident _whatsoever_, he was not there. He has chosen between conflicting testimony for reasons of his own, and has no more standing in this argument than you or I. Prediction: these guys will back away from thier insinuations about Kerry’s combat record, Big John M done spanked them good. Back away? Run for cover, more likely. They will then continue saying things like “Kerry lied” as they attack his testimony to the Senate and his anti-war stance, then will try to pretend that was all they _ever_ said. So far as I’m concerned, the more attention this nasty little attempt at political thugee gets, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/139 "2004-08-06T22:27:49Z")
**elucidator** Who is Edwards? Or did you mean Elliot in the third to last paragraph? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249/140 "2004-08-06T22:28:05Z")
A bit of clarification, please. It’s my understanding that Senator Kerry’s award was a _Bronze_ Star, not a _Silver_ Star. I’m unsure of how these awards rank in the pantheon of military decorations, but I do know they’re not the same. It bothers me that the organizations that are doing the sloppy reporting on this basic fact tend to be the ones that are in support of John Kerry. Still, I may have the whole thing bass-ackwards, myself. Was Kerry awarded an Bronze, or a Silver Star. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johm-kerry-evil-sez-drudge/258249.md?page=8)