# John Ashcroft Resigns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918 "2004-11-09T23:14:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/101 "2004-11-10T19:17:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Another Amen to **Poly**. > > A personal vouch from **Minty** might be enough to turn me around on Gonzalez. I’d like to hear more. I’d like to believe too, but look at his _actions_, not the kind words of others. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/102 "2004-11-10T19:23:48Z")
Just watch.He’sreally going to run for President in 08. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/103 "2004-11-10T19:26:42Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’d like to believe too, but look at his _actions_, not the kind words of others. Amen post. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/104 "2004-11-10T19:32:43Z")
He’s a fundamentally decent person, conservative by temperment but definitely not an Ashcroft-style fundie zealot. The torture memo was very uncharacteristic, and for that reason I suspect that it was written as a theoretical exercise rather than as something intended to grant legal blessing to serious torture; nevertheless, I look forward to hearing his explanation (and I believe he should offer one, despite the attorney-client privilege) during his confirmation hearing. I have never heard him utter a word that gave me pause for concern, even though I would obviously disagree with him on any number of issues. He is very much Bush’s confidante, which I believe (and this is not based on any kind of personal knowledge) has led him to give Bush legal advice that enabled him to accomplish things that should not have been accomplished. A bit of a deal with the devil, to my way of thinking, but I doubt Gonzalez shares that assessment. He is an advocate for his client, and that is something he enjoys doing. He also seems to prefer the activity and challenge of being that advocate to the relative isolation of being a judge. I will say, however, that when I caught up with him briefly at a function in Austin a few months ago, he looked like he’d aged ten years in the last three. And sorry, but you’re not getting anything more specific. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/105 "2004-11-10T19:36:24Z")
Put it this way: Al will not give a shit about exposed nipples on Justice Department statuary. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/106 "2004-11-10T19:36:29Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > He is very much Bush’s confidante, which I believe has led him to give Bush legal advice that enabled him to accomplish things that should not have been accomplished. [/QUOTE] 'nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/107 "2004-11-10T19:43:26Z")
Just to be clear, **minty** , are you offering a full endorsement or are you just saying that he doesn’t have horns? I’m going to give your words a lot of weight but I still _really_ want to hear what he has to say about the torture memo. I know that sometimes lawyers will develop theoretical exercises they don’t necessarily believe in just to see where they will go and if Gonzalez indicates that such was the case with the torture memo then I’ll probably be willing to accept (or at least not resist) his appointment. I do agree that a POTIS should be given ideological latitude for Cabinet appoinments. It’s one of the perks of winning and they’re only for four years anyway. The Supreme Court on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/108 "2004-11-10T19:45:17Z")
Also, for the one or two people who know me in real life and may have some idea of the basis of my knowledge, could I ask you not to mention it? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/109 "2004-11-10T19:46:52Z")
That’ll do for me, and, anyway, its not that it matters. The Atty Gen is pretty much the President’s creature anyway, its not like Lambchop ever told Shari Lewis to go fuck herself. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/110 "2004-11-10T19:54:09Z")
Thanks, **minty** ; I recognize the careful road you need to tread there, and that was quite helpful. If there’s anything else you feel comfortable adding, like his stance on rights jurisprudence, I’d welcome it – but that character assessment was immensely valuable to me. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/111 "2004-11-10T19:58:32Z")
Exactly, **'luci**. Gonzalez is not going to turn into the Democrats’ dream A.G. He’s a Republican, and he’s Bush’s lawyer. _Nobody_ Bush appoints to the job is going to be the Dems’ dream. I expect will be arguing strongly against any number of positions the Gonzalez Justice Department will take in the next four years. I’m merely offering my opinion that Gonzalez is a decent human being who is not, IMO/E, likely to compete with Ashcroft in terms of the worst excesses of the last four years. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/112 "2004-11-10T20:00:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s interesting to note that changing the Senate Rules requires a simple majority. Theoretically, a simple majority could force a change to the rules and permit cloture at a simple majority. The Republicans don’t want to go there – if Iraq or the economy are looking bad in 2006, they might need the filibuster just the way it is in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/113 "2004-11-10T20:00:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > but that character assessment was immensely valuable to me. I totally erspect you **poly** , but 😕 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/114 "2004-11-10T20:06:17Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Exactly, **'luci**. Gonzalez is not going to turn into the Democrats’ dream A.G. He’s a Republican, and he’s Bush’s lawyer. _Nobody_ Bush appoints to the job is going to be the Dems’ dream. I expect will be arguing strongly against any number of positions the Gonzalez Justice Department will take in the next four years. I’m merely offering my opinion that Gonzalez is a decent human being who is not, IMO/E, likely to compete with Ashcroft in terms of the worst excesses of the last four years. Ok, I can go with this. **Poly** , forget that last post, there ain’t enough to go on right now for me to loathe this guy. If this guy screws up then we’ll take it from there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/115 "2004-11-10T20:06:52Z")
So, **minty** , so long as we don’t actually mention you and Gonzalez in the same breath, can we still talk about Madame Olga’s House of Pain? It was there, right? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/116 "2004-11-10T20:11:27Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Put it this way: Al will not give a shit about exposed nipples on Justice Department statuary. Definitely one of the burning issues of the day. I appreciate your thoughts, **Minty** , but I honestly can’t say they reassure me much. It hardly matters how fundamentally decent a man is if he allows himself to be used for bad purposes. I only wish I knew what parts of the Constitution he believes to be quaint and obsolete. (In fairness, if any. I will certainly pay close attention to his confirmation hearing.) As you said, time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/117 "2004-11-10T21:20:01Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Well, of course! My wide latitude attitude doesn’t mean not giving him a hard time. Just don’t get too carried away with roadblocks; save that for a more important hill. I think the Dems should make a big show of opposing Gonzalez’s nomination, giving him the harshest shots possible during the hearings, stretching them out for as many days or weeks as humanly possible, filling the press with indignant soundbites. The represents a GOLDEN opportunity to label the Bush Admin in general and the Repubs in general as the party of torture. Pin that on Gonzalez and by extension the rest. Even if Alvarez is the nice guy Minty says he is, this is too good an opportunity to pass by … the duck has literally stuck out his webbed foot at us, daring us to lame him. I say we lame the living hell out of him by pinning his administration THE TORTURE ADMINISTRATION. And the Gonzalez nomination is just the tool to do it with. I also don’t believe Gonzalez is all that nice. Minty Green says he is, and that’s good, but … Gonzalez writes memos defending the use of torture by U.S. forces in a “theoretical exercise” and then … prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere get tortured. I’m not supposed to connect the dots, is that it? They’re right there, I can see them as plain as day, but I’m just … not supposed … to see them … How very Winston Smith of me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/118 "2004-11-10T21:20:08Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Janet Reno is still available. But Janet Reno has been known to surround and besiege compounds full of religious fanatics led by a leader with messianic delusions, who thinks he talks to God. So they’d be scared in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/119 "2004-11-10T21:36:18Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > The Republicans don’t want to go there – if Iraq or the economy are looking bad in 2006, they might need the filibuster just the way it is in 2007. I agree – the GOP’s better strategy is to pick up the remaining five seats that separate them from a sixty-vote majority. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918/120 "2004-11-10T21:40:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree – the GOP’s better strategy is to pick up the remaining five seats that separate them from a sixty-vote majority. I really wish you guys would be a skosh less gleeful at the prospect of a permanent one-party state. I’m really not looking forward to the passing and ratification of the amendment that makes Dubya president for life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-ashcroft-resigns/273918.md?page=7)