# John Brown: Hero or Terrorist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506 "2010-11-13T01:03:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/1 "2010-11-13T01:03:08Z")
Was the 19th Century abolitonist John Brown a great freedom fighter or a mad terrorist? Personally I am sympathetic to what he believed in and fought for but I believe his methods were unconstructive and simply polarized the nation. The Pottawattomie Massacre for instance was simple and pure political murder while his raid on Harper’s Ferry was mistaken and foolish at best. Personally I’d compare him to the anti-abortion fighters of today such as the killer of George Tiller-whose hearts are in the right place but whose action are hypocritical and do nothing to advance the cause. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/2 "2010-11-13T01:29:27Z")
John Brown - Hero or Douchebag? Hero [ul][li][He looked like a total badass.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png/479px-John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png)[/li][li]He wanted to arm slaves and kick slaver ass.[/li][li]He didn’t like slavery.[/li][li]Unlike people who bomb abortion clinics, Brownie wanted to stop an actual injustice instead of an imagined one.[/li][li]He delivered brutal vigilante justice [del]murder[/del] to prisoners [del]unarmed hostages[/del].[/ul][/li] Douchebag [ul][li][He failed to grow a beard.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png/479px-John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png)[/li][li]He fucked up.[/li][li]He may or may not have started the Civil War.[/li][li]He delivered brutal vigilante [del]justice[/del] murder to [del]prisoners[/del] unarmed hostages.[/ul][/li] So that’s five HERO points and only four DOUCHEBAG points. I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/3 "2010-11-13T01:38:37Z")
Brown was a fanatic. But he was fantastically selfless, and while clearly motivated by religion, was willing to partner with atheist abolitionists. All he cared about was an end to slavery. He wasn’t a demogogue like David Koresh. And it’s inaccurate to compare him to people like Osama bin Ladin, who dreams of a Muslim theocracy stretching from the Iberian peninsula to southeast Asia. Before Harper’s Ferry, most Americans considered Brown a mad terrorist. But his writings were widely read in the run up to his execution, and likely accelerated the onset of the Civil War. Although the issue of slavery wasn’t going to go away, Brown’s words (and horrific deeds) played a role in transforming slavery into an issue that the entire population cared about. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/4 "2010-11-13T01:45:24Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > [He failed to grow a beard.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png/479px-John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png) Tsk. [Fail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Brown_portrait,_1859.jpg). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/5 "2010-11-13T01:46:26Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Tsk. [Fail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Brown_portrait,_1859.jpg). > > 😉 Oh shi- Yeah, this guy is clearly a hero. Thanks, **Tamerlane**. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/6 "2010-11-13T01:49:36Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So that’s five HERO points and only four DOUCHEBAG points. I rest my case. +6. Had his sons kill motherfuckers with broadswords. _Broadswords_. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/7 "2010-11-13T01:53:28Z")
John Brown - Hero or Douchebag? Hero [ul][li][He looked like a total badass.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png/479px-John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png)[/li][li][He had an epic fucking beard later in life.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png/479px-John_Brown_daguerreotype_c1856.png)[/li][li]He wanted to arm slaves and kick slaver ass.[/li][li]He didn’t like slavery.[/li][li]Unlike people who bomb abortion clinics, Brownie wanted to stop an actual injustice instead of an imagined one.[/li][li]He delivered brutal vigilante justice [del]murder[/del] to prisoners [del]unarmed hostages[/del].[/li][li]With _broadswords_.[/ul][/li] Douchebag [ul][li]He fucked up.[/li][li]He may or may not have started the Civil War.[/li][li]He delivered brutal vigilante [del]justice[/del] murder to [del]prisoners[/del] unarmed hostages.[/ul][/li] The evidence is irrefutable. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/8 "2010-11-13T02:19:06Z")
What if tomorrow you were kidnapped, shipped to Africa, and forced into slave labor? Would it be ok for someone to kill your owner if the government wasn’t doing anything about it? I say yes it would. Another vote for hero. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/9 "2010-11-13T02:44:31Z")
Brown was one of the odd individuals who is absolutely, frighteningly rational. Sure, he wasn’t very good at what he was doing and clearly misunderstood the situation. But he absolutely saw the kind nof evil slavery was - and then went out absolutely to stop it. The problem was that the also misunderstood the humanity of _slaveholders_, which was one of the common aspects of abolitionists which partly caused the Civil War (the increasing insane touchiness and irrationality of the Southern Democrats elite being the single big cause, of course). Brown was a fanatic in the purest sense: a complete monomaniac. The entire world was reduced to slavery for brown. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/10 "2010-11-13T02:49:21Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > John Brown - Hero or Douchebag? This revised assessment is one of the awesomest things I’ve seen in awhile. It’s irrefutably delicious. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/11 "2010-11-13T02:51:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The problem was that the also misunderstood the humanity of _slaveholders_ He misunderstood their humanity in the same way that Indiana Jones misunderstood the humanity of Nazis. And no, that’s not Godwinizing: if anything, an individual Nazi soldier had less to do with evil than an individual slaver. You can recognize that someone’s human, and conclude that they still need killing. Soldiers do it every day. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/12 "2010-11-13T02:56:11Z")
I’d question the premise that he wasn’t successful. He wanted to start a war that would end slavery, and he did. Granted not exactly the slave revolt he envisioned, but I don’t think he’d be upset with the way things panned out after his execution. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/13 "2010-11-13T02:59:50Z")
In [Flashman and the Angel of the Lord](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_and_the_Angel_of_the_Lord), George MacDonald Fraser paints a very detailed portrait of John Brown. The bottom line seems to be while his heart was in the right place, he was a scary, world-class nutcase. I don’t see how anyone who truly knows much about him could admire him to any great degree. I think his supposed hand in actually starting the Civil War is often exaggerated. It would have happened anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/14 "2010-11-13T03:09:33Z")
He was both. A heroic terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/15 "2010-11-13T03:09:55Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The bottom line seems to be while his heart was in the right place, he was a scary, world-class nutcase. I don’t see how anyone who truly knows much about him could admire him to any great degree. It’s been my understanding that his “nuttiness” is a latter day exaggeration, originally propaganda manufactured by the South in an attempt to portray him as crazy for opposing slavery. Rather like how the Soviet Union was fond of accusing people who opposed Communism of being insane and shipping them off to “psychiatric institutions”. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/16 "2010-11-13T03:18:39Z")
I’ve never heard his nuttiness was simply an exaggeration. The [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_raid_on_Harpers_Ferry) on the raid says: **“William Lloyd Garrison called the raid ‘misguided, wild, and apparently insane.’ But through the trial, Brown transformed into a martyr. Though ‘Harper’s Ferry was insane,’ wrote the religious weekly the _Independent_, ‘the controlling motive of his demonstration was sublime.’”** It would not surprise me if those downplaying his perceived insanity are engaging in some wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/17 "2010-11-13T03:21:27Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > What if tomorrow you were kidnapped, shipped to Africa, and forced into slave labor? Would it be ok for someone to kill your owner if the government wasn’t doing anything about it? I say yes it would. > > Another vote for hero. Well if slaves revolted that would be understandable but John Brown certainly should have known better. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He misunderstood their humanity in the same way that Indiana Jones misunderstood the humanity of Nazis. And no, that’s not Godwinizing: if anything, an individual Nazi soldier had less to do with evil than an individual slaver. > > You can recognize that someone’s human, and conclude that they still need killing. Soldiers do it every day. A slaver is someone who kidnaps people and sell them into slavery not slave owners. Plus if you’ve owned slaves for several generations and its a cultural norm how could you think differently? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/18 "2010-11-13T03:22:43Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > He was both. A heroic terrorist. Or in the title of Evan Carton’s biography, he committed Patriotic Treason. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/19 "2010-11-13T03:24:38Z")
Yale Prof. David Blight podcasted his (excellent) course on Civil War history: [http://academicearth.org/courses/the-civil-war-and-reconstruction-era-1845-1877](http://academicearth.org/courses/the-civil-war-and-reconstruction-era-1845-1877) His own take on Brown? Probably pretty close to romantic nut. He points out that the man was an utter failure at everything he tried his hand at in life, every single business venture, and that he was pretty disagreeable personally - absolutely no sense of humor. But, at the end of the day, even Frederick Douglas respected him. In fact, when it looked like Lincoln was about to lose his re-election bid, he even approached Douglas to attempt a Brown-style raid to free some slaves and start a slave revolt in the South, tie up Southern military resources. Ended up not happening - but people did take Brown’s ideas seriously. It’s worth remembering, though - the man did kill entire slaver families. Including women and children. Hard to excuse that. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506/20 "2010-11-13T03:33:07Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > It’s worth remembering, though - the man did kill entire slaver families. Including women and children. Hard to excuse that. At least he didn’t waterboard them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-brown-hero-or-terrorist/560506.md?page=2)