# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/221 "2004-08-12T03:04:47Z")
[ > [@elucidator](#): > > You guys sure this where you want to go? Each candidates personal veracity and honesty concerning their life history? So that embarassing episodes are presumed to have direct relevance on the candidates suitability? > > Are you _sure_ you want to go there? 'Cause we’re ready. No, it’s not where “we” want to go. It’s were we are being taken. If Senator Kerry’s campaign managers hadn’t tied his wagon to his past it wouldn’t be a source of conjecture. The Swiftboat Veterans would still be in the shadows if not for the Veteran theme. These guys have been around a while and we’re just now hearing their message. IMO, it would have taken them twice as long to gain exposure if Kerry had not promoted his Veteran’s status. Their message would have missed national exposure prior to the election. It’s not an accident that this is a theme in his campaign. It is (IMO) the product of focus groups and is in response to a perception that Kerry is soft on defense. This isn’t a new thought, it has been discussed on every network covering the campaign. He is using his service to his country to counter any votes against recognized hardware. It’s tough to say you voted against UAV’s when they have been used so successfully (and publicly) in combat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/222 "2004-08-12T03:09:23Z")
**Sam** , the Bronze Star thing is a non-fucking starter. Give it up. The Navy says he earned it and the Navy read all the after-reports. If one of these dickbags can produce ann AAR which differs from the official account, then you can whine, until then you’ve got nothing. Kerry had grenades on him? Who gives a FUCK? Are fucking serious with this bullshit? This is something you want this election to be about? Whether John Kerry carried grenadaes in Vietnam? So what if he did? That makes him…what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/223 "2004-08-12T03:22:34Z")
Um…does anybody have a link for this stuff about Kerry’s people saying he got the dates mixed up? I can’t find it on a google news search. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/224 "2004-08-12T03:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Sam, the Bronze Star thing is a non-fucking starter. Give it up. The Navy says he earned it and the Navy read all the after-reports. If one of these dickbags can produce ann AAR which differs from the official account, then you can whine, until then you’ve got nothing. That would be great. Would you please put in a call to Kerry and ask him to sign his form 180 so we can actually read all the documentation around this stuff? For example, he has not released the after-action reports of his supposed trips into Cambodia. He hasn’t released the medical records for some of his medals. > [@](#): > > So Kerry WAS in Cambodia and he just got the dates wrong. Huh? Where did you get that from? Because Kerry says so? This whole thread is about Kerry’s veracity. When he gets caught in a lie about being in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, an event that was seared - seared! into his memory, he says, “Oh, it must have been some other trip into Cambodia.” And that’s good enough for you? After all the evidence showing that it’s highly unlikely he was ever there? As for the Bronze Star - I DID drop it. I admitted that Kerry could have deserved that medal, and in any event it seemed like the type of action where eyewitnesses could legitimately have differing accounts. I’ve been talking about Cambodia since. You guys keep dragging up the Bronze Star episode because it’s the only one that so far you have even a remote leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/225 "2004-08-12T03:31:54Z")
**Hentor:** The original retraction was on ‘Fox and Friends’ yesterday. Here’s the exchange: > [@](#): > > Today, on Fox News’ “Fox and Friends,” Kerry Campaign Advisor Jeh Johnson had this to say to the show’s co-host Brian Kilmeade: > > JOHNSON: John Kerry has said on the record that he had a mistaken recollection earlier. He talked about a combat situation on Christmas Eve 1968 which at one point he said occurred in Cambodia. He has since corrected the recorded to say it was some place on a river near Cambodia and he is certain that at some point subsequent to that he was in Cambodia. My understanding is that he is not certain about that date. > > KILMEADE: I think the term was he had a searing memory of spending Christmas - back in 1986 in the senate floor in Cambodia. > > JOHNSON: I believe he has corrected the record to say it was some place near Cambodia he is not certain whether it was in Cambodia but he is certain there was some point subsequent to that that he was in Cambodia. I saw Lanny Davis attempt to defend Kerry tonight on MSNBC, and he admitted that Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia on Christmas Eve. As did Lawrence O’Donnell. The new spin is, “Hey, the Mekong is a twisty river. Who knows? And who cares?” The thing is, Tony Blankley was on there, and he says he has an article coming out on Friday where he interviews someone who was responsible for border security, and he has the details on how it’s impossible to get confused on that point. The border was guarded by troops, blocked with wire and concrete pilings, and the approach to the border was festooned with warning signs. NO ONE ‘accidentally’ went into Cambodia, and no one gets confused over whether or not they might have been there. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/226 "2004-08-12T03:34:24Z")
**Diogenes** , I’m sure you’ll agree from the medal thread that I’ve always given Kerry proper respect as a war hero. However, that doesn’t make him immune to criticism, by any means. And he just got caught in a huge lie. Now, are you so blinded by partisan passions that you can’t see that? BTW, the quote about the mixed up dates is referenced [here.](http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4771) I can’t find a transcript of the original Fox News interview with the Kerry spokesman, except on this site. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/227 "2004-08-12T03:37:58Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Cambodia story is different. Kerry has told that story repeatedly, in great detail. He claims to have a hat given to him by a CIA agent while they were on a mission into Cambodia. These stories are now pretty conclusively shown to be lies, and the Kerry campaign itself admits that Kerry was not in Cambodia in Christmas 1968, but that he’s pretty sure he was in Cambodia some other time, but he can’t remember even roughly when. From **Mr Moto’s** link, ‘admits Kerry was not in Cambodia’ is not the response at all. I’m disappointed in you both. From the way you presented it I expected a clean cut statement of fact What their response appears to be is that Kerry was in the Mekong Delta, in an area of indeterminate sovereignty. I’m not particularly convinced it is true. But it certainly is plausible. And that will serve well enough. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/228 "2004-08-12T03:38:35Z")
That was the same source I got the quote from, by the way. Transcripts should be available from Fox if anyone wants to pay for them, but it seems to me to be a moot point since the campaign has an all-new spin today. It was a long time ago, it’s a big river, it was all so confusing, and anyway Kerry says he was there. He just can’t remember when (that way it’s unfalsifiable, of course). You know, he was only in country for four months. You’d think he’d have a rough idea of when he went into Cambodia, since by his own description his being sent into Cambodia was one of the formative episodes of his life and the turning point in his deciding that the war was immoral. And by the way, it was seared - seared! into his memory. Unless the details don’t match. Then he can’t remember a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/229 "2004-08-12T03:45:12Z")
**Sevastapol:** Huh? I said that Kerry now admits he was not in Cambodia on Christmas Eve. This is what his spokesman said: > [@](#): > > John Kerry has said on the record that he had a mistaken recollection earlier. He talked about a combat situation on Christmas Eve 1968 which at one point he said occurred in Cambodia. He has since corrected the recorded to say it was some place on a river near Cambodia Isn’t that exactly what I said? I never said that Kerry admits he was NEVER in Cambodia, like you imply. In fact, I said that Kerry is still claiming that he was in Cambodia at some point. These criticisms are getting increasingly bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/230 "2004-08-12T03:46:47Z")
No, my assertion was that Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. My source for such was John Kerry, 2004, as opposed to John Kerry, 1979. That’s all I said in my post, and all I’m willing to assert at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/231 "2004-08-12T03:48:52Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > That was the same source I got the quote from, by the way. Transcripts should be available from Fox if anyone wants to pay for them, but it seems to me to be a moot point since the campaign has an all-new spin today. It was a long time ago, it’s a big river, it was all so confusing, and anyway Kerry says he was there. He just can’t remember when (that way it’s unfalsifiable, of course). > > You know, he was only in country for four months. You’d think he’d have a rough idea of when he went into Cambodia, since by his own description his being sent into Cambodia was one of the formative episodes of his life and the turning point in his deciding that the war was immoral. And by the way, it was seared - seared! into his memory. > > Unless the details don’t match. Then he can’t remember a thing. There’s nothing vague about the time reference. Christmas Eve is a very precise time index during a very short career. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/232 "2004-08-12T03:49:45Z")
The AAR’s belong to the Navy not to Kerry. He has no control over their release. The question is whether the dickbuckets calling him a liar write differing accounts of the incident back then, and if so why didn’t the Navy notice? Also, if they think such an injustice has been done, then why haven’t the petitioned the Navy to revoke his medal? As far as Kerry saying he was in Cambodia- well prove he wasn’t. If you can’t prove he wasn’t then how are we supposed to resolve this? He says he was there. That’s good enough for me. Plenty of people were there who were “never there” according to the military. Look, the medals thing went nowhere for the Swifties, the Winter Soldier thing went nowhere and all they have left is Cambodia. Something not one of them would be in a position to know anything about. This may get lots of play on right wing websites but it’s dead as far as a genuine campaign issue. The only people who pretend to care are people who were going to vote for Bush anyway. BTW, Larry Flynt reportedly has a slime book of hs own coming out which alleges that GWB once paid for an abortion. Flynt says he has the doctor who performed it as well as other witnesses. Now personally, I don’t care if Shrub paid for an abortion. Good for him. He took responsibility. But If I wanted to be a dick about it I could raise a big stink about Bush’s “honesty” and “character” and wail about how these witnesses “deserve to be listen4ed to,” but I’m not going to do that because A) I don’t care and B) It would be hypocritical, disingenuous grandstanding on my part. There is more than enough reason to criticize Bush simply on his performance as POTUS without resorting to slime. How about you, though? Do you care if Bush paid for an abortion (let’s just say for the hell of it that it was proven)? Would you raise a stink about it. Would you profess to be “disturbed” about it? I’m just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/233 "2004-08-12T03:53:21Z")
Less adversarial **Sam**! The point is _whether it is true of not_ there are plenty of plausible and satisfactory responses to the claim. For example: > [@](#): > > Well you know, what with all the heavy incoming and grenades, the fresh wound and keeping count of the VC I’d popped it’s possible there were moments of disorientation. Then my crewman spun round, screaming into the water. Someone had to save Johnny, there wasn’t a moment to think… took me all of 30 seconds. The claim has no legs. I mean honestly 35 years ago? Any strategist would tell you it brings the focus on Kerry’s war record, which is empirically good. That is those parts of it which are certain. Nah, I think the Dems have it in the bag and are just going for bonus points. Have you seen the NYSE today? Oooh boy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/234 "2004-08-12T04:02:55Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > No, my assertion was that Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. My source for such was John Kerry, 2004, as opposed to John Kerry, 1979. > > That’s all I said in my post, and all I’m willing to assert at this time. Well from reading the cite, it sounds like Kerry was in the Mekong Delta very close to the Cambodian border that Christmas (close enough that he might not have been sure which side of the border he was on) , that he was definitely in Cambodia on other occasions and that in his 30 year old memory he though that particular Christmas Eve was one of those times. Sounds plausible to me, especially if those other occasions also involved that same Delta. If he actually saw action that night then it would stand out in his mind more, and he would remember “one of those times in Cambodia” when he was only very close to Cambodia. So he told the story a lot and he was sure. So what? Haven’t you ever been positive that you remembered something correctly and turned out to be wrong? It happens all the time. Human memory is very imprecise and over decades you can become dead sure about a detail that isn’t correct. And does it really matter any more unless you’re just looking for ammunition to use against John Kerry? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/235 "2004-08-12T04:05:35Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > …A Swift Boat is NOT what you would use for a secret mission into Cambodia. They are huge and loud. It makes no sense. Your confusing “clandestine” with “secret”. B-52’s were used for “secret” bombings in Cambodia, and when it comes to “huge and loud”, fuhgeddaboutit! And, Christ Jesus, **Dio!** Leave Larry Flynt outside, scrape him off your shoes before you come inside. According to the Board Bi-Partisan Treaty of '02 (also known as the “Thanksgiving Protocols”), anytime one of us brings in Larry Flynt as a source of anything, up to an including cooking tips, that means we have to accept 4 NewsMax and 6 from the _Washington Times_ as valid cites. They already retaliated with a James Lileks quote. You know, the guy who would be almost as funny as Dennis Miller if he had better writers. Clearly, we are dealing with a ruthless bunch here. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/236 "2004-08-12T04:06:32Z")
Taking the Dems side for a moment: _even if it were true that K was in C at the time_, the response they have made is the better strategic decision. It concedes an unimportant argument. It’s gone. Who cares if he was right there, right then or not? All that can be marshalled from that is some minor confusion about exact location and dates 35 years ago. Really, again I refer you to the larger picture, within what is a second order issue. To wit: the accepted facts of K’s military service are overwhelmingly favourable. It simply isn’t an issue with any traction. Or! What **Diogenes the Cynic** said. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/237 "2004-08-12T04:22:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week\_2004\_08\_08.html#001687](http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2004_08_08.html#001687)… > > shows renowned sportsman and Yale Varsity rugby star sucker-punching an opponent. Before passing judgement on our president’s cheating ways, we should hear from his teammates. Is there a Rugby Veterans for Truth organization out there that could enlighten us? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/238 "2004-08-12T04:23:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And, Christ Jesus, **Dio!** Leave Larry Flynt outside, scrape him off your shoes before you come inside. According to the Board Bi-Partisan Treaty of '02 (also known as the “Thanksgiving Protocols”), anytime one of us brings in Larry Flynt as a source of anything, up to an including cooking tips, that means we have to accept 4 NewsMax and 6 from the _Washington Times_ as valid cites. > > They already retaliated with a James Lileks quote. You know, the guy who would be almost as funny as Dennis Miller if he had better writers. Clearly, we are dealing with a ruthless bunch here. You misunderstand me, **'Lucy** , I am not bring up Flynt as cite for anything, I’m just pointing out that there is slime on the way from our side too and I’m asking rhetorically if the tighties will insist on giving this book the same sober reflection which they demand for the Swifties. Personally, I don’t see it as being any less sleazy than the Swifty book and I am preemtively disavowing it now before it even comes out. I am calling on those whowould embrace the Swifties to be intellectually honest and treat both books the same way- either dismiss them both as irrelevant garbage (as I intend to do) or treat them both as stunning and disturbing revelations of an urgent and crucial nature to this election. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/239 "2004-08-12T04:55:00Z")
**Diogenes** said: > [@](#): > > The AAR’s belong to the Navy not to Kerry. He has no control over their release. I don’t believe that’s true. The AARs are available upon FOI request, as long as the people in the report consent to its release. That’s what the form 180 is about, as far as I know. It’s a release that says the government can release documents upon request that relate to the individual in question. Without it, the documents can only be released with specific approval. Kerry has approved the release of some documents, but not all. And he won’t sign the form 180. Bush signed his. > [@](#): > > The question is whether the dickbuckets calling him a liar write differing accounts of the incident back then, and if so why didn’t the Navy notice? The Swiftees claim they didn’t even know he got a Bronze Star for the Rassmann incident, until they heard him talking about it on the campaign trail. The doctor who says that he examined Kerry’s wound for one of his purple hearts says that Kerry was denied his purple heart application the first time he went for one, and then three months later, after all the eyewitnesses to the action had left Vietnam and Kerry had moved to a new unit, new paperwork was submitted by someone and Kerry got the Purple Heart. They suspect Kerry put himself in for one, and no one was around to contradict his claim. But that’s one of the documents Kerry refuses to release. In this case, wouldn’t that be a slam dunk for Kerry? All he has to do is release that Purple Heart application and show that it was signed by Elliott at the time of the action, and these guys have a major claim shot down (and if that’s the case, I promise to drop the issue of all the medals unless they can show up with documentary proof, because this will damage their credibility greatly). So why doesn’t Kerry do that? > [@](#): > > Also, if they think such an injustice has been done, then why haven’t the petitioned the Navy to revoke his medal? This is a very good question. I have no idea. There may be procedural reasons. If they only learned about the medals recently, can they still do that? I don’t know what the regs are. Hopefully, if this gets play in the media someone will ask them that question. I’d like to know the answer. > [@](#): > > As far as Kerry saying he was in Cambodia- well prove he wasn’t. If you can’t prove he wasn’t then how are we supposed to resolve this? I think the burden of proof is now on Kerry. He has been caught in one great big lie, and responded by saying, “Oh, maybe I misremembered that. But I’m sure I was there some other time - I just can’t remember when.” That’s not plausible on its face. This is a guy who went from telling this story as if it was one of the most memorable events of his life. Repeating it on the Congressional Record. Telling reporters about it at every opportunity. And Christmas Eve figures prominently in the story - the celebratory gunfire, the feeling of abandonment for being in an unauthorized country on Christmas eve, etc. It’s simply not credible to accept the claim that, “it must have been some other time”. And in any event, after a four-month tour he should be able to at least pin it down to a timeframe small enough that we can check. Then we have the problem that not a single one of his own crewmembers will back him on this story. None of them will admit to ever being in Cambodia. Then we have the further problem that the border is blocked, the river entrance blocked by pilings and guarded and clearly posted, and that Swift Boats were unsuitable for secret incursions into Cambodia. They are huge and very loud. They sound like tugboats. (you can hear one [here](http://www.swiftboats.org/). That site has a map of the patrol areas of the Swift boats as well. If you look down at the south end of the picture you can see the Mekong river running up to Cambodia. Sa Dec, which was the closest point to Cambodia that Kerry’s boat patrolled, is about halfway between the coast and Cambodia. Look at the [Swiftboat here](http://swiftboats.net/). Does that look like something you’d use for covert stealth missions into Cambodia? It’s literally the size of a tugboat. A 50 foot power boat is BIG. Swiftboats were mainly used for coastal patrol on the open ocean. Later, the mission included going upriver on the Mekong, where the river is large and deep. They are ocean-going vessels. You don’t sneak them through the tiny tributaries into Cambodia. It makes no sense. That’s why Kerry crewmate Gardner said that the notion was ridiculous, and that IF there were missions into Cambodia, it would have been by PBR, a jet-powered boat half that size that can run very quietly. > [@](#): > > He says he was there. That’s good enough for me. Plenty of people were there who were “never there” according to the military. Thirty five years later, there is no reason to keep this a secret. In fact, Kerry’s been making the claim since the end of the war, with no repercussions from the Navy. If he was really on secret missions for the CIA into a country he wasn’t supposed to be in, why was he never in trouble over telling that to the world? And yet, no one will come forward and verify his story, including the guys working for his campaign who would have been on the boat with him. > [@](#): > > Look, the medals thing went nowhere for the Swifties Hey, the book isn’t even out yet. I have no idea if the medal thing is going anywhere. Apparently, the book itself is heavily footnoted and contains numerous signed eyewitness accounts. I’m reserving final judgement on that until I can get the book and read it. > [@](#): > > the Winter Soldier thing went nowhere I’m not sure about that. The last time ‘Winter Soldier’ was in the media was back before 9/11 when no one cared about military matters and there was a deep distrust of the military. Plus, back then Kerry was still proudly against that war. Now Kerry is running as a proud vet who loved the guys he served with, and the public is protective of the military (which is why there is so much squeamishness about this Swift Vet thing in the first place). The narrative has changed. If these guys manage to play Winter Soldier out in the media again, and get some publicity on what Kerry actually said back then, it may be more trouble for him, especially amongst undecided voters in the swing states. > [@](#): > > and all they have left is Cambodia. And if that’s all they had, it’d be enough. As I said before, if a candidate for a cabinet post had to admit in hearings that he had invented a story about his military service and lied about it to Congress, there is NO WAY he would be confirmed. Kerry is running for a much more important position than that. Let’s remember back to the episode of Admiral Boorda. Do you remember that? A highly decorated veteran, but someone in the media noticed that two of his medals had a combat V for valor above them. Someone checked, and found that he shouldn’t have gotten those V’s. So the media raked him mercilessly over that. Faking his record! He got medals he didn’t deserve! Dishonored and humiliated, Boorda committed suicide. Military people take this stuff very seriously. Lying about secret illegal missions is despicable behaviour. It’s a big deal. If it can be shown that he exxagerated combat reports to get medals he didn’t deserve, then that’s even worse. > [@](#): > > Something not one of them would be in a position to know anything about. You really have to stop saying this. These guys served with Kerry. These boats were only on the water for a few hours at a time. The rest of the time, the unit trained together, slept together, rested together, drank together. They went out on the water together, and patrolled just a few yards from each other. You could make the case that his fellow officers were in a better position to judge Kerry than the enlisted men on his crew. Not only could they observe everything he did, but they would be present during the officer’s briefings and debriefings along with Kerry, and they would be writing up paperwork with him. And one of the Swiftvets WAS a crewmember on Kerry’s boat. In fact, he served on Kerry’s boat longer than anyone else. > [@](#): > > This may get lots of play on right wing websites but it’s dead as far as a genuine campaign issue. The only people who pretend to care are people who were going to vote for Bush anyway. That may turn out to be true, but we don’t know yet because the story is still building. It’s getting more coverage every day. You know how stories like this go - they bubble under the surface for a while, and then they either fade away or they break through into the mainstream media and take on a life of their own. I honestly don’t know which way this will go yet. But consider this: The book is #1 on Amazon right now, and it’s not available yet. When it’s released, it could sell a million copies. If it does, it’s going to be the subject of a lot of watercooler conversation. Just the fact that it’s a bestseller will force the media to cover it. And, it’ll give the Swiftvets a couple of million bucks they can use to buy airtime for their ad. So this story is FAR from over. It may just be starting. > [@](#): > > BTW, Larry Flynt reportedly has a slime book of hs own coming out which alleges that GWB once paid for an abortion. Flynt says he has the doctor who performed it as well as other witnesses. If it’s true, it makes Bush a hypocrite. It certainly would diminish him among a lot of people, and damage him a lot on the far right. However, there is a fundamental difference - Bush isn’t defining his campaign on his sterling behaviour as a young man. He admits he was a screwup. So the fundamental narrative doesn’t change. Probably why his DUI charge didn’t sink him. But I’ll tell you what - if Flynt’s charges can be substantiated, I’ll examine the evidence and accept what I find. I’m not going to prejudge anything. Speaking of this issue - this will be a good test of media bias. So far, the mainstream media (big three networks, NY Times, LA times, etc) haven’t mentioned the Swiftvets. Not once that I know of. Which is pretty amazing given that Kerry’s campaign has already had to admit to mistakes over this issue. So if 250 decorated veterans can’t get a mention in the MSM in spite of having the #1 best seller and forcing a retraction from Kerry, what are the odds that a porn publisher and a single witness will get coverage? You’d think it’d be not likely at all, right? Let’s wait and see. > [@](#): > > Now personally, I don’t care if Shrub paid for an abortion. Good for him. He took responsibility. I take hypocrisy seriously. If he paid for an abortion when he was young, it’ll certainly diminish him in my eyes. > [@](#): > > But If I wanted to be a dick about it I could raise a big stink about Bush’s “honesty” and “character” and wail about how these witnesses “deserve to be listen4ed to,” but I’m not going to do that because A) I don’t care and B) It would be hypocritical, disingenuous grandstanding on my part. There is more than enough reason to criticize Bush simply on his performance as POTUS without resorting to slime. This is a good point. Bush has already been president for four years. Like him or hate him, he can be judged on what he has done. John Kerry still needs to be judged. Frankly, I think the debate should be on his Senate record. But Kerry won’t talk about that. He keeps talking about Vietnam instead. He’s opened himself up to these charges by constantly resurrecting what he did as a young man. It was a cynical move on Kerry’s part - he knew that he had to counter Bush’s strength on defense, so he dusted off the medals he did/didn’t throw away, reinvented himself as a champion of the military, and beat Bush over the head with his Vietnam service at every chance. If Kerry hadn’t said a word about Vietnam in this campaign, these Swift Boat guys would be totally ignored. People would be like, “Huh? Vietnam? Why are we talking about Vietnam? Who cares?” But Kerry himself turned Vietnam into a major factor in the campaign. > [@](#): > > How about you, though? Do you care if Bush paid for an abortion (let’s just say for the hell of it that it was proven)? Would you raise a stink about it. Would you profess to be “disturbed” about it? I’m just curious. As I’ve said, absolutely. However, Bush makes no claims to be a straight arrow as a young man. He drank and partied and screwed up, and then straightened out and made something of himself. But do you know what would really bug me? It would really bug me if it turned out that Bush was not actually a pilot in the guard, but a bookkeeper or something, and all the pilot stories were fake. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/240 "2004-08-12T05:32:56Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The rest of the time, the unit trained together, **slept together** , rested together, drank together. Come on now, Sam, they weren’t that close! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=13)