# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/421 "2004-08-20T05:49:35Z")
With all due, **Dave S** , he has a point. By an accident of fate, I knew quite a few returning Viet Nam vets, and this “medal inflation” was a fairly frequent subject of derisive commentary. I’ve also read about the phenomenon (though can’t cite it to save my soul), about how medals first began to be tossed about willy-nilly in an effort to bolster an unpopular war. It culminated in the simply obscene number of combat awards given out during Operation Urgent Fury, the invasion of Grenada, most likely the least heroic military adventure in US history (which includes the bitch-slapping and mugging of Mexico, and the craven betrayal of the Phillipine revolutionaries against Spain…) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/422 "2004-08-20T05:55:11Z")
I just wonder, if the Swifties keep spreading their bullshit, how long will it be before a high-profile veterans’ group pop up and denounce them for smearing _all_ vets with their indiscriminate accusations of rampant medal-inflating and military fraud? How much insinuation can the Swifties throw around before someone like the Veterans of Foreign Wars or the American Legion throw down the gauntlet and give O’Neill _et al_ a long-overdue public smackdown? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/423 "2004-08-20T05:55:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I see, its a _legal_ issue. Kerry disapproves of the [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) ad about Bush, publicly objects to it in no uncertain terms, and the ad stops like it was shot in the head. But poor ol’ GeeDubya, however tormented his tender Methodist conscience may be, can’t do anything like that, because he’s the President. Boy, what a nasty Catch-22 for him, huh? Sometimes rich and powerful people just can’t catch a break, ya know? He should go clear some brush, he’ll feel better. > > [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5765243/) > > Here you can read the transcript of the interview with Thurlow and Michelle Merkin. Wherein Thurlow discusses how he intuited that Kerry had a “plan”, and how he closely observed its execution. > > I fear Mr. Thurlow has overlooked the single crucial factor in aluminum haberdashery: the foil must be folded in alignment with _true magnetic north_, or it is useless in shielding against telepathic rays… Man, Chris Matthews was ON FIRE in that show. His dissection of Thurlow was a thing a beauty and his lambasting of Malkin over her “self-inflicted injury” nonsense was even better. I wonder if she was deliberately lying about that or if (as **Sam** suggested, she just didn’t do her research, was talking out of her ass and got busted cold on it. It seems to me like Matthews is a guy you better have your ducks in a row with. You try to bullshit your way through the interview and he’ll burn you down to the ground. I’ve said before on this board that Chris Matthews really is what Bill O’Reilly tends to be. A smart, informed hardball interviewer who’s equally tough on both sides without coming off as a raging narcissist and a disingenuous hypocrite, and without periodically going off the rails into paranoid rants about “secularists.” I’ve got to start watching his show once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/424 "2004-08-20T05:58:59Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > So should we consider all military medal citations to be incomplete and inaccurate and especially those for all the medals awarded in Vietnam? I didn’t say that. You’re putting words in my mouth. > [@David Simmons](#): > > Do you have any justification whatever in the form of evidence for your astonishing statement? _What_ astonishing statement? Do you consider that military records from 1968 being incomplete and inaccurate is astonishing? Then you’re pretty naieve. Consider how many men are in a company, and realize that there is **ONE** company clerk (two if there’s overlap with DEROS and assignment) who has to take all the handwritten records from all these people and any and all incidents they encounter and type up the reports, it would be astonishing if they _were_ accurate. Evidence? Look up my military records. I served as a fill-in for the company clerk for a short time, and saw it all first-hand. Shit, I did it. > [@David Simmons](#): > > Glad to be a member of the “Snakespirit’s Detractors,” at least on this issue. Why is that, don’t you believe JK deserved his Purple Heart? It’s not a judgement call on that one; the rules are very clear, and he deserved it, whether the schrapnel was from his grenade or from an enemy. There’s no way to know! As long as enemy fire was reported, unless it can be proven to be deliberately self-inflicted, it’s the result of enemy action. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/425 "2004-08-20T05:59:06Z")
What Bill O’Reilly **pretends** to be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/426 "2004-08-20T06:10:32Z")
In defense of **Snakespirit** , I didn’t get the impression that he was attacking John Kerry, he was rather making the point that the sort of allegations which are being made about his record and the intense scrutinization of his medals could be done to virtually anyone who was in Nam and got any medals. I got the impression that Snake was saying that any inflated medal recommendations or citations in Kerry’s record (and that’s not even to say that there _was_ any puffery involved in Kerry getting his medals) were simply par for the course at the time and would not be evidence of fraud or duplicity on Kerry’s part, only that the military was liked giving medals to officers and those officers were not turning them down. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/427 "2004-08-20T06:14:18Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > …I served as a fill-in for the company clerk for a short time, and saw it all first-hand. Shit, I did it… Which reminds me… From the _NY times_ linked above… > [@](#): > > …Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry’s. “What’s the W for, I cannot answer,” said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry’s. Mr. Kerry’s middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not the author… Congruent with your experience, **Snake**? Did you, for instance, initial reports? (Reminds me of my cousin, Cole. Recruiting sargeant swore he would go to Germany, learn radar. Boot camp and straight to the airplane. As they were rounding them up to ship them out, somebody asked if anybody could type. Cole could barely read, but he could type like a motherfucker, 80-85 wpm. Says his weapon may still be there, he set it down and never picked it up again…) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/428 "2004-08-20T06:28:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > With all due, **Dave S** , he has a point. By an accident of fate, I knew quite a few returning Viet Nam vets, and this “medal inflation” was a fairly frequent subject of derisive commentary. I’ve also read about the phenomenon (though can’t cite it to save my soul), about how medals first began to be tossed about willy-nilly in an effort to bolster an unpopular war. > > It culminated in the simply obscene number of combat awards given out during Operation Urgent Fury, the invasion of Grenada, most likely the least heroic military adventure in US history (which includes the bitch-slapping and mugging of Mexico, and the craven betrayal of the Phillipine revolutionaries against Spain…) I stand by my belief that military commanders are conscientious for the most part in the awarding of medals. Mainly because I think they are all conscious of things like Grenada and don’t want to cheapen medals. Grenada is an aberration which is why it sticks in the mind. Man bites dog sort of thing. Those who claim otherwise have mostly anecdotal, personal stories. In short, scuttlebutt. I try not to give a lot of weight to scuttlebutt. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/429 "2004-08-20T06:33:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Congruent with your experience, **Snake**? Did you, for instance, initial reports? That’s a detail that did not survive 36 years, **elucidator,** I remember the typewriters were real MF’ers though. Wish I could help. It seems like it would have been done, though, since one thing that was important was accountability! > [@elucidator](#): > > (Reminds me of my cousin, Cole. Recruiting sargeant swore he would go to Germany, learn radar. Boot camp and straight to the airplane. As they were rounding them up to ship them out, somebody asked if anybody could type. Cole could barely read, but he could type like a motherfucker, 80-85 wpm. Says his weapon may still be there, he set it down and never picked it up again…) Similar thing happened to a friend of mine, Steve, in 1965, and when I got my draft notice I was scared shitless, so he counseled me. “When you get to Cam Rahn Bay, you’ll come out every day for formation and assignment. It takes a couple days, and one of those days a guy will come out asking if anyone knows how to type. Raise your hand (I had taken typing in High School) and you’ll never leave Cam Rahn bay.” That was _his_ experience, but they never asked for the 3-4 days I was there. It wasn’t until much later that I got a chance to fill in for the clerk, and frankly, I couldn’t wait to get back out in the field! Death comes in many disguises… Putting up with the lifer BS was worse (for me at least) than dealing with land mines, NVA incoming and incursions into Laos and Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/430 "2004-08-20T07:06:31Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > FWIW, military records concerning battlefield actions are notoriously incomplete and inaccurate. > Or, at least they were in 1968 VietNam. I guess this would include the records of the citations and medals given to the Swifties also. The average soldier sees a miniscule part of what goes on and it is casting a pretty wide net to say that military records were “…notoriously incomplete and inaccurate … in 1968 Viet Nam.” based on the experience of someone whose sole justification seems to be having “served as a fill-in for the company clerk for a short time”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/431 "2004-08-20T10:02:53Z")
**David** : > [@](#): > > _I guess this would include the records of the citations and medals given to the Swifties also._ Indeed it would. I think the point is that _no_ military record could possibly withstand the microscopic inspection of detail to which Kerry’s records have been subjected by the Swifties. There will always be some ambiguities in the record, some different versions of the events, and so forth, that can be exploited to cast doubt on the official history. Who wrote the after-action report? How deep was the shrapnel, really? How many people were on the boat? Etc. As we say in Sweden, the Swifties read Kerry’s war record the way the Devil reads the Bible: that is to say, with an eye to exploit every possible ambiguity in the record to cast Kerry’s service in a bad light. But if the Swifties feel that this sort of attack is justified, then I call upon them to also sign 180s; let’s see if their own records can stand up to the sort of scrutiny to which they have subjected Kerry’s. It has been gratifying to watch this attack come apart like a piece of wet toilet paper over the last couple of days. Thurlow has been completely discredited. He won’t release his records because he’s afraid they will be twisted against him, i.e., he’s afraid someone will do to him exactly what he’s doing to Kerry. He says that doesn’t remember that his own citation for a Bronze Star clearly states he performed his heroic rescue mission under enemy fire, a claim that beggars belief. His performance on Hardball was pathetic; the idea that Kerry “engineered” his medals so as to exploit them later is beyond ludicrous. The New York Times article referred to by Drudge is available [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?hp). It includes a very interesting pop-up graphic detailing the relationships among various important Republican operatives and the Swifties (which, unfortunately, I don’t know how to link). Definitely worth looking at, though, and, not surprisingly, we see that Rove has a finger in this game as well. I’m falling out of this discussion mainly because there just doesn’t really seem to be that much to debate anymore. I agree with **elucidator** regarding the eRiposte website, and highly recommend it. It squarely demolishes a great deal of the Swifties testimony, in particular Hibbard’s poor memory. I will say this, though: in my case, at least, the Swifties’ tactics _have_ backfired. I think Kerry has thus far addressed this issue in an admirable manner, and for the first time in my adult life, I’m beginning to believe _in_ a presidential candidate. Kerry sure sounds sincere to me, and he’s intelligent and articulate. Prior to this debate, I was voting primarily _against_ Bush; but now, given what I’ve learned, I think I’ll actually be voting _for_ Kerry. Thanks, Swifties! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/432 "2004-08-20T11:23:31Z")
Looks like it’s back to looking for WMDs for **Sam “The Skeptic” Stone**. Talk about self-inflicted wounds… ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/433 "2004-08-20T12:53:25Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > **Razorsharp** you are missing the point a little here. However you are in company with Pat Buchanan so don’t fret overly. Oh, believe me, I ain’t frettin’, especially since the Kerry campaign is now (reluctantly)admitting that Kerry may not have been in Cambodia afterall. I think they are saying that maybe he was “confused”. Yeah, right. Well, if he lied about that, can anything else regarding his valor in Viet Nam be relied on as truthful? And as soon as Kerry received the correct amount of Purple Hearts, and there’s no doubt that he was counting, then it’s so-long and see you later. He’s outta here. To Hell with his “band of brothers”, he’s got congressional testimony to give that will make him a rising star within a Democratic Party that, during the sixties, had been infected with neo-liberalism. And that brings us to the reason for the “home movies”. What’s “neo-liberalism”, you say? It’s something akin to “neo-conservatism”. It’s a debasement of the traditional values of a political party, but masquerading as traditional “core values” of the newly infected party. Kinda like a coup detat. > [@](#): > > It would be utterly droll if Kerry had said those were his thoughts _at the time_, in 1968. Alas no such comedy is there to be found. > > Kerry made the comment in 1979. The absurdity he points to is the contrast between his 1968 experiences and the subsequent claims of President Nixon. > > Indeed it was a very real absurdity. Merely one not apparent to Kerry until some time after 1968. And Kerry certainly wasn’t going to lay any fault on President Johnson, he, afterall, was the Founding Father of Neo-liberalism. (The Great Society) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/434 "2004-08-20T14:32:31Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > > [@Snakespirit](#): > > > > FWIW, military records concerning battlefield actions are notoriously incomplete and inaccurate. > > Or, at least they were in 1968 VietNam… > > > [@David Simmons](#): > > > > So should we consider all military medal citations to be incomplete and inaccurate and especially those for all the medals awarded in Vietnam? > > > [@Snakespirit](#): > > > > I didn’t say that. You’re putting words in my mouth. All I did, as the above shows, is ask a question based on your claim. Is your response above a “yes” or a “no?” > [@Snakespirit](#): > > Then you’re pretty naieve. Consider how many men are in a company, and realize that there is **ONE** company clerk (two if there’s overlap with DEROS and assignment) who has to take all the handwritten records from all these people and any and all incidents they encounter and type up the reports, it would be astonishing if they _were_ accurate. > Evidence? Look up my military records. I served as a fill-in for the company clerk for a short time, and saw it all first-hand. Shit, I did it. If your company commander had the company clerk take individual reports from all of those in the company and compile them into the Morning Report then he was a bad commander and its no wonder you think everything was FUBAR there. The typical infantry company consists of 3 rifle platoons and a weapons platoon. So the company commander deals with 4 platoon leaders’ action reports. Each platoon leader likewise gets reports from the 3 or 4 squad leaders. The squad leaders are actually on the ground at the time and generally have a pretty good idea of what happened. The platoon leaders are also close to the action and know pretty well what went on. Likewise the company commander. Although further back he or she is close enough to watch a lot of the operation by necessity and is in pretty good communication with platoon leaders at the time. The Army has been in this game a long time and knows that a leader’s span of effective control doesn’t extend to more a few people. That’s the main reason it breaks large units into small ones. Those up the chain of command know that the reports will contain a certain amount of ambiguity and just plain mistakes. This was particularly true in Viet Nam because “success” was measured by body count which was subject to mistake by duplication and exaggeration. The same thing has always been true of aircraft kill and other damage reports. I will agree that Westmoreland did seem to be in love with body counts. However these reports are important because they are the vital feedback as to what tactics work and what don’t and how the enemy conducts his operations. Good commanders realize this and strive for completeness and as much accuracy as the situation permits. > [@Snakespirit](#): > > > [@David Simmons](#): > > > > Glad to be a member of the “Snakespirit’s Detractors,” at least on this issue > > Why is that, don’t you believe JK deserved his Purple Heart? It’s not a judgement call on that one; the rules are very clear, and he deserved it, whether the schrapnel was from his grenade or from an enemy. There’s no way to know! As long as enemy fire was reported, unless it can be proven to be deliberately self-inflicted, it’s the result of enemy action. I’m at a complete loss on this one as to the connection between the above statements. In any case, I don’t see how possible errors bear on the question of Kerry’s fitness for the presidency. Is it the claim that screwed up battle reports favored only Kerry and no one else? Is it possible to screw up a battle report in both directions? _I.e._ favorable to one individual and unfavorable to others so that much, much later the favored individual can be elected to the Senate and still later run for president? And for Chrissake in your last post the statement “Kerry may not have been in Cambodia afterall.” is the tattered end of a rather trivial point. At least I hope it’s the end of the in or not in Cambodia nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/435 "2004-08-20T15:07:03Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And as soon as Kerry received the correct amount of Purple Hearts, and there’s no doubt that he was counting, then it’s so-long and see you later. He’s outta here. To Hell with his “band of brothers”, he’s got congressional testimony to give that will make him a rising star within a Democratic Party that, during the sixties, had been infected with neo-liberalism. And that brings us to the reason for the “home movies”. Wow. Have you got anything that might even kinda resemble the barest shred of evidence that Kerry was just waiting to make his nut inre decorations? Or that he planned all along to get home and testify? Or what the reason is for the “home movies”? Or, well, pretty much anything that issues forth from you? Or are you gonna disappear again when people start pointing out to you that you are giving far more credence to absolute nonsense than it merits? If you could let me know, I can plan accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/436 "2004-08-20T15:14:21Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And for Chrissake in your last post the statement “Kerry may not have been in Cambodia afterall.” is the tattered end of a rather trivial point. At least I hope it’s the end of the in or not in Cambodia nonsense. Well, at least it is the end of _you_. It has become increasingly obvious that you are not interested in truth at all, **Simmons**. For some sick reason you seem to be only interested in discrediting me or engaging me in some kind of personal attacks. At least you can pay attention to the posts. At least enough so that you can see what’s being said, and who is saying it. Please show me where I ever said anything about Kerry in Cambodia. And when you can’t find it, I’d consider an apology appropriate, if your ego can handle it. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/437 "2004-08-20T15:37:18Z")
Yeah. If anyone else posting here (besides **Simmons** ) has any concern about the accuracy, aptness or applicability of my statements, or requires me to answer any of **Simmons’** questions or challenges from about post 427 on, please hive me the specifics and I’d be glad to comply. He seems to be interested only in personal attacks and how to turn my answers back on me. I’m not going to get involved in his > [@David Simmons](#): > > Glad to be a member of the “Snakespirit’s Detractors,” at least on this issue. I think he thinks I’m trying to discredit Kerry! ☹ Just an aside: His description of how a company-sized unit operates looks like it comes from an officer’s handbook in peacetime operations. In 1968 VietNam there were not always officers present, and there were times when even NCOs were not always present. That’s **wartime**. I know reports and records were inaccurate because I’ve been digging through them _since_ VietNam, plus the fact that in addition to spending some of my time clerking, I made some good friends with clerks and other people in the CP. I don’t mind providing details to reasonable people who will at least read the posts objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/438 "2004-08-20T15:49:35Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > What’s “neo-liberalism”, you say? It’s something akin to “neo-conservatism”. First off, no, I don’t say that, because I know what it is. Second off, if anything, it’s akin to paleoconservatism: neoliberal policies are extreme free-market policies, as you’d know if you’d ever studied political science. Newt Gingrich was a big proponent of neoliberalism. The meaning you’re trying to assign to the word has nothing to do with how it’s traditionally used amongst folks who actually use the word. You’re welcome to do a Humpty Dumpty on us, defining it however you like, but your definition ain’t gonna help you communicate with folks. Everyone else, thanks for the insightful discussion; it’s very educational. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/439 "2004-08-20T16:06:05Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Well, at least it is the end of _you_. > > Please show me where I ever said anything about Kerry in Cambodia. And when you can’t find it, I’d consider an apology appropriate, if your ego can handle it. You are correct. I mistook **Razorsharp’s** post for yours. Sorry. And as for my view of unit operations being an officer’s view that’s true. In the outfit I was in the morning report and all action reports were the job of the Adjutant and not the clerk who did the typing. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/440 "2004-08-20T16:32:15Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Wow. Have you got anything that might even kinda resemble the barest shred of evidence that Kerry was just waiting to make his nut inre decorations? Or that he planned all along to get home and testify? Or what the reason is for the “home movies”? Or, well, pretty much anything that issues forth from you? Yeah, Kerry’s own actions pretty much backs up what I just wrote. > [@](#): > > Or are you gonna disappear again when people start pointing out to you that you are giving far more credence to absolute nonsense than it merits? You may fantacize that I “dissappeared” because some “Doper” pointed something out to me, but snap back to reality. Never happened. Never will. > [@](#): > > If you could let me know, I can plan accordingly. Here, this will help you plan. People are not impressed by those who have to self-proclaim their “intelligence”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=23)