# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/461 "2004-08-21T19:14:59Z")
What burning deck are you talking about, elucidator? I’ve said right from the beginning that I didn’t know who to believe, and I’ve tried to present both sides as I understood them at the time. The latest information coming along doesn’t look good for many of the Swiftees’ allegations. On the other hand, the one episode where it would seem they are right is ‘Christmas in Cambodia’. Whatever. If you really need a pound of flesh so badly to make you feel good, I suggest the butcher store. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/462 "2004-08-21T20:24:25Z")
You \*do \* know who to believe. You \*do \* know who has the facts and has been consistent in its statements, and who does not and hasn’t. It may be difficult, but it sure isn’t complicated. Still keeping an open mind, waiting for the facts, on Iraq’s WMD’s too, are you? Still something in the air there, too? Would it kill you to admit you got totally fooled about that? Would it kill you to admit it about this topic, too? Most importantly, will you be a little skeptical before repeating the Bush/RNC/RW-blogger line as fact on the next subject as well? It has nothing to do with a pound of flesh, since you bring that up, and \*everything \* to do with your credibility and responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/463 "2004-08-21T20:48:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The **Sam** stood on the burning deck Whence all but he had fled; > The flame that lit the battle’s wreck Shone round him o’er the dead… Can’t you just do Limericks like **december** used to? That highbrow verse leaves me a little cold. Besides, I heard that the [boy started the fire himself](http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/hemans01.html), just to qualify for a purple heart. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/464 "2004-08-21T21:38:28Z")
**Sam** stated unequivocally that there was no small arms damage to the boats, that there was no enemy fire that day, that there were concrete pylons and guards on “the” river into Cambodia, that John Kerry said he “accelerated out of the kill zone,” that people in the swift boat crews didn’t use bandoliers or hand grenades, that there was scads of evidence in mittfuls of affidavits… all of this is from memory, so I am sure that there is more. But he was just evaluating all the evidence and keeping an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/465 "2004-08-21T21:42:00Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > For most people, it is evident enough that the Shifties are acting on behalf of Bush. Is this enough to demonstrate coordination of the type that would raise any legal trouble for Bush or for the Shifties? The Kerry team sure thinks so… > [@](#): > > [Kerry files FEC complaint against swift boat group](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/kerry.swiftboat/index.html) > > (CNN) – The Kerry presidential campaign filed a complaint Friday with the Federal Election Commission, alleging that ads from an anti-Kerry veterans’ group are inaccurate and “illegally coordinated” with Republicans and the Bush-Cheney campaign. > > The complaint – filed against Swift Boat Veterans for Truth – states that “… there is overwhelming evidence that SBVT is coordinating its expenditures on advertising and other activities designed to influence the presidential election with the Bush-Cheney campaign.” > > \ > > Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona said Friday that President Bush “has been the recipient of 527 ads which are terrible, and in my view very, very inappropriate.” McCain charged that all 527 ads are illegal. Previously he has asked both Kerry and Bush to condemn the critical ads. > > Campaign officials with Kerry in Florida said the complaint notes a New York Times report of “a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures, and President Bush’s chief political aide, Karl Rove.” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/466 "2004-08-21T22:11:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Embarassed yet? One needs to have a sense of shame before one can feel embarassed, friend **luci.** > [@Sam Stone](#): > > No. See? 🙂 > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’ve said right from the beginning that I didn’t know who to believe, and I’ve tried to present both sides as I understood them at the time. Keep repeating that, friend **Sam,** and you might be able to fool yourself someday. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/467 "2004-08-21T23:42:44Z")
Reading this thread is like looking into a mirror of reality. I’m not naming names, but it should be obvious. Some of you are so vehement in defending your preferred candidate’s actions and condemning the other side that you remind me of little pit bulls: bite and chew, bite and chew. Your unilateral condemnation and quickness to rush to judgement reminds me of the very actions of SBVT and MoveOn. But then, you still have freedom of speech, unlike 527’s. So do I. And I think you are making yourself look very foolish. The truth will out. Whether or not you foam at the mouth. If an organization can be shown to be in violation, it will be political suicide for the candidate. Frankly, I throw in with the group that says the actions of men around 20 years of age who are now in their 50’s says less their more recent actions, and I’m not going to vote for them based on what they did 30 years ago. I’m from their generation. I was in VietNam in 1968. If I had the opportunity to avoid VietNam service and still be honorable (National Guard), I would have done it. When I was in VietNam, when a situation presented itself to save a life (be heroic) I took it, without thinking about what medals I would get. It’s largely situational, based on where you were and what resources you had at your command. As we used to say in the ‘Nam, "Don’t mean nuthin’." More important are the actions taking place now, and how the men are responding. Also important is the actions of those men over the past 10 years, while they have been in politics, how they voted and what actions they supported. Since the name of this thread is “John Kerry and VietNam,” let me put in my 2 Dong: [ol] [li]Get off Kerry’s ass about his medals. He’s paid his dues and medals don’t mean much anyway, seeing as they are more chance than choice.[/li][li]JK, put the drum down. You brought the subject up and you’re getting what you deserve for bragging. This ain’t the PT 109, so don’t expect a song.[/li][/ol] So, John went to 'Nam and got some medals. So did a lot of people. So Bush avoided an unpopular war. So did a lot of other people. Big deal. Two non-issues that are being blown all out of proportion by dirty politics. I just hope that those of you who are old enough to vote find some _real_ reasons to support your chosen candidates. History, however, suggests that this is just another popularity contest. S (just in case you forgot) ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/468 "2004-08-22T00:23:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “…The commander of a Navy swift boat who served alongside Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry during the Vietnam War stepped forward Saturday to dispute attacks challenging Kerry’s integrity and war record…” The William Rood statement can be found at [http://www.truthout.org/docs\_04/082204Y.shtml](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/082204Y.shtml) Interesting that he says that none of the ‘swifties’ were present for the silver star incident > [@](#): > > There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago—three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969. > > ``` > One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other. > > For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/469 "2004-08-22T01:01:17Z")
**Snake** , what you may have failed to appreciate is that the people who think about politics and policy have long since decided what they are going to do come the general election. All the carrying on now is directed at (1) persuading the people who do not think about politics and policy and who do act as if this was an election for the home coming king, (2) scaring off the people who have decided but are not strong in there conviction on the theory that a vote not cast for my opponent is a vote for me, and (3) confirming the faithful in their sometimes shaky allegiance. People who do not pay attention – like the guy at the VFW convention who was sure that ex-LTJG Kerry was allied with Jane Fonda based on a phony photo – are susceptible to falsehood presented with theatrical sincerity. That is why the ad with the little girl plucking peddles off a flower was so damaging to Goldwater. That is why sincerity presented lies like those of the Swift Boat Phonies have to be confronted immediately. If the Bush Campaign thinks that the Move On ads are presenting falsehoods they need to confront them and place the truth before the people. That gets us into trouble with folks like our friend **Sam** who when presented with two contradictory stories are just incapable of deciding which is true on an objective and rational basis or to act based on the probability that one is more truthful than the other. Unless their convictions are strong enough to adhere to them and not worry about which story is true the conflict of stories paralyzes them an results in their withholding their vote. That may well be the objective of the Swift Boat Phonies – to create enough confusion that the Kerry-leaning will opt out of the election. As narrowly divided as the electorate is that tactic plus the widely reported GOP effort to get poor old Ralph Nader on the ballot in the critical states, may take enough votes away from Kerry without adding any votes to Bush to give the Electoral College vote to Bush. When you are dealing with an election that may be decided by the votes of a half dozen retired grade school teachers in Toledo, or Dubuque or Rhinelander, or Chambersberg, or St. Joseph the sincere falsehood may be decisive. It is a shame that is the case but that is where we are. It might well be silly to argue this stuff and in a sane world it certainly is silly. This year however it is important, maybe crucial, to the outcome of our quadrennial crap shoot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/470 "2004-08-22T01:05:12Z")
Cynicism will not absolve us, **Snake**. We are the electors, we choose the most powerful human being on the face of the Earth. As it stands, we have a mediocrity who believes himself a Leader of Men, Elmer Fudd chanelling Otto von Bismarck. And it’s our fault. Pure and simple. You imply that there is some parity here, they’re both whores, and there is some truth to that. As well, there is probably some truth to the accusation that Kerry is, like Clinton, a native political animal. I also don’t doubt that he was mindful that his heroism (and that’s what it was) would stand him in good stead when he returned to launch his political career. But that’s the sticking point. If you accept, as I do, that a political career was his lodestone, then you have to accept that he was entirely willing to chuck it away by embracing a most unpopular cause. Demanding a place in the top ranks of Nixon’s enemies list cannot be described as an adroit political manuever. We are forced to an astounding conclusion: he did it because he believed it, because it was right. Because it was his _duty_! He was willing to sacrifice his life’s ambition, having already risked his life. Now what was GeeDubya doing at this time? My knowledge of his biography is a bit sketchy. Was he already pissing away millions of dollars of other peoples money, or was he just getting drunk? This campaign was as effective as it was repulsive, and Geedubya and Darth Rove know it. Thier silence is approval. GeeDubya will condemn this the very instant the last drop of partisan advantage has been wrung from it, and not one second sooner. Did you read his mealy-mouth response to this? How he too was a victim of these dreadful partisan “527” groups? Did he tug your sympathetic heartstrings for his suffering, or did you dash to the Porcelain Altar to puke yer guts out? No, I don’t think GeeDubya (Praise the Leader!) actually took any active role in all this, if I were his handlers, I would try to ensure that he makes as few actual decisions as possible. But he saw, he heard, he _knew_…and was silent. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/471 "2004-08-22T01:22:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But he saw, he heard, he _knew_…and was silent. Or, to be charitable, perhaps like our friend **Sam** , the President just can’t decide beyond any doubt which story is true, the official record or the PR spiel put out by his friends in Texas. I can certainly understand why the President would be reluctant to rely on the resources of the federal government to tell him if Senator Kerry phonied up his combat record or not. The President may be understandably gun shy about the reliability of government intelligence info. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/472 "2004-08-22T01:32:33Z")
The new Kerry ad, Old Tricks, is a pretty nasty rebuttal. And it really puts McCain on the spot in a big way. Check it out. [http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/oldtricks.php](http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/oldtricks.php) The flyer probably isn’t good enough to make the FEC do anything, but then, almost nothing is (they generally never do much of anything in time to accomplish anything). But I do know that the Kerry campaign makes a point of not paying attention to what ACT and [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) are running. The idea of promoting some major claim of their timed with one of their ad campaigns would be a giant no no. Apparently, the same doesn’t hold for the other side. But then, a lot of things don’t. The difference is probably that no matter who wins the election, the Bush team will have at least two months to tear apart the Kerry campaign looking for violations, either in revenge or pure vindictiveness. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/473 "2004-08-22T01:35:40Z")
Look at it this way. Bush is “supposed” to be in charge. That means as the leader, he is responsible for what his underlings do, just like a commander is ultimately responsible for the actions of his people. All he had to do was invoke the supposed laws against soft money campaign ads, and he could have put a stop to it. His silence and denial is a mark against him. Since this is not the BBQ pit, I will stop here. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/474 "2004-08-22T02:15:59Z")
Here’s the Kerry campaign’s reminder of what the Bush-at-large camp did to McCain back in 2000: [http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr\_2004\_0821c.html](http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0821c.html) I didn’t know about the “fag candidate” thing. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/475 "2004-08-22T02:41:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > we choose the most powerful human being on the face of the Earth. > Thier silence is approval. My point exactly - at least to part of your reply. What these men did 30 years ago means nothing in comparison to their more recent actions. I know people will vote for other reasons, and that’s sad. We’re not electing 20 year olds, but we’re voting for them? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/476 "2004-08-22T03:29:47Z")
> [@Attrayant](#): > > Ken Cordier (a veteran appearing on the newest swiftboat ad) was a member of the Bush campaign [up until a few days ago](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:7Mtcv7gCB14J:www.georgewbush.com/Veterans/SteeringCommittee.aspx+Cordier+NAM-POWs.&hl=en). From [Codiers biography](http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:FscGiR5F_5EJ:www.okbar.org/news/cordierbio.pdf++%22Ken+Cordier%22+bush&hl=en&ie=UTF-8): > [@](#): > > Civic and Community Activities > Political Involvement - During the 2000 Presidential Primary Campaign, Col. Cordier rallied fellow POWs to support George W. Bush and collected signatures from a large segment of the POWs for a press release endorsement. Following President Bush’s nomination, he was appointed as Vice Chair for the Veterans and Retired Military for Bush - Cheney National Coalition. In that capacity, he coordinated daily electronic message traffic to the Vietnam POW membership for follow-on networking. During the fall campaign, Col. Cordier carried President- > elect Bush’s message of the need to rebuild our military and the importance of restoring support for veterans and military retirees at every public speaking opportunity [pdf version here](http://www.okbar.org/news/cordierbio.pdf) Now they’ve chucked him out like last weeks potatoe: > [@](#): > > Retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier, resigned as a member of the Bush campaign’s veterans’ steering committee after it was learned that he appeared with other former POWs in a 30-second ad, produced by the Swift Boat group, criticizing Kerry’s congressional testimony. > > “Col. Cordier did not inform the campaign of his involvement in the advertisement,” the Bush campaign said in a statement. “Because of his involvement (with the group) Col. Cordier will no longer participate as a volunteer for Bush-Cheney '04.” [Former POW resigns from Bush campaign](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apelection_story.asp?category=1131&slug=Bush%20Cordier) ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/477 "2004-08-22T05:19:38Z")
Damn! 10 Pages!!! This subject is as popular as Astral Projection! I’m not sure. Is that a compliment? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/478 "2004-08-22T06:34:01Z")
Here is [of the whole thing. Neither the Swiftees or Kerry come out smelling like a rose. The problem is, after reading all this and reading the statements of everyone involved, there are a lot of real inconsistencies from all parties. Kerry’s “no man left behind” story about the March 16 episode no longer makes any sense. The Post’s [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/graphics/swiftboat\_082104.html]reconstruction of the March 16 river incident](The best analysis I’ve seen[/url) backs up the Swiftees’ allegation that they went to the aid of the 3 boat and Kerry sped off down river. The Post suggests he may have been as much as a MILE downriver before he turned around and came back for Rassmann. The post’s account also suggests that Rassmann was very confused as to what was happening. Rassmann says he had to dive underwater to avoid being hit by the other boats behind him, but the Post’s graphical reconstruction shows the other boats on the opposite side of the river. Also, Rassmann says that when he came up for air all the other boats had left, and he was all alone until Kerry came back for him. According to the post, the other boats were BEHIND him, conducting rescue operations on the 3 boat. Only Kerry’s boat took off down the river. On the other hand, it sure seems like there are a lot of eyewitnesses that dispute the Swiftees’ accounts that there was no gunfire. Which still doesn’t explain how they could sit for an hour and a half in the middle of an ambush while they saved the 3 boat and rigged it for towing, without anyone getting so much as a scratch other than the injuries from the first mine. So it’s still unclear. It’s interesting that the Post seems to take the position that Kerry’s third purple heart was granted mistakenly, if not fraudulently. The ‘buttocks shrapnel’ was pretty clearly the grains of rice from Kerry’s own grenade earlier in the day when there was no combat, and the only other injury to that day was a bruise. I don’t think they give Purple Hearts for a bruise. On the other hand, it sure sounds like there was other gunfire from shore in the Silver Star incident, backing up Kerry’s claims and justifying his medal. Another eyewitness has come forward to say there was. I now await the usual hysterical reactions and character abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/479 "2004-08-22T06:35:09Z")
And I deserve it, for not previewing. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/480 "2004-08-22T07:14:22Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > But I do know that the Kerry campaign makes a point of not paying attention to what ACT and [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) are running. You must have missed it earlier this week when [Kerry denounced MoveOn.org’s ad](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0818-03.htm) attacking Bush’s National Guard service. Still, there’s one difference between [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) and the Swift Bullshitters for Bush – the [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) ads are grounded in facts. I’m slightly surprised Kerry hasn’t considered suing the Swifties for libel, but AFAIK there might be laws preventing him from doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=25)