# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/661 "2004-08-24T19:30:01Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Gee, what a surprise. When I leave a message that doesn’t include cites, suddenly the cite police show up. So I post a message heavily riddled with cites, and the response I get is a complete ad-hominem attack from Minty, in which not one of my points is addressed. Figures. Why the hell should I address your “points”? The entire reason my post was that doing so is a monumental waste of time, precisely because of who you are. Sometimes, my fellow hominid, _ad hominem_ is a perfectly appropriate approach. This is one such occasion. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/662 "2004-08-24T19:33:00Z")
\*\*Dopers: \*\* Sam, this thing you’re claiming is a fact is wrong because (…) and is contradicted by these other facts (…). You’re omitting these other facts (…) and misinterpreting them in this way (…). The reasoning you’re using is faulty in this way (…). The authorities you’re claiming have been wrong or outright lying in these ways (…), while those you’re dismissing have not. \*\*Sam \*\* (unable to disagree): That’s another personal attack! I should have expected that from the likes of you people! Same old song. Gets tiring after a few hundred repetitions. **Hentor** , I love it - that explains things much better than Sam’s version. **elucidator** , whoever pissed in your Cheerios, it wasn’t me, I swear. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/663 "2004-08-24T19:37:24Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > …it seems close to nobody would switch from Kerry to Bush because of this issue. > > And I sure as hell am positive that if it is proved that Kerry was 100% telling the truth, nobody from the Bush camp would switch to Kerry. > > So, why is this being discussed? For one thing, if Kerry will become President, he certainly will not say that something “was seared in” him ever again. And this Respublic will be much better for it. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/664 "2004-08-24T19:50:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Having fired 7.62 rounds before at various targets, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that one would punch a hole in an aluminum hull from 35 yards. A NATO 7.62 round can punch through 3/8" steel plate from 100 yards. Having fired rounds at various targets during Citizen’s Police Academy training, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that AIM matters! The officer in charge of our training told of an incident wherein several Law Enforcement Officers were returning fire from an armed man from relatively close range. They had him backed up against a wall and were firing repeated rounds directly at him – a non-moving target. When all was said and done, and they escorted the perpetrator from the scene, they saw a perfect outline made of bullet holes around where he had stood, not one single bullet having even _hit_ his body, let alone penetrating it. Not one. Into skin, not aluminum. From just a few yards away. Not a single hole in the hull! Even trained professionals sometimes don’t hit their targets. Doesn’t mean gunfire didn’t happen. P.S. Thank you for the compliments, **minty** & **ElvisL1ves**. I don’t often visit this forum, but sometimes I just can’t help myself, and this is one of those issues that’s just too damn important to let go by without comment. I’m flattered that you found my thoughts to be a worthwhile contribution. This, however, I must admit has kindof whooshed me… > [@elucidator](#): > > Is she, like, the Queen of the Jungle **Shayna**? Or have I got her mixed up with Shamu? I, too, swear I didn’t piss in your Cheerios, either. For one thing, I don’t really have the appropriate apparatus to make hitting it remotely likely from this distance. For another, I have no reason to. Care to 'splain what I’m obviously missing? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/665 "2004-08-24T19:58:34Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > This, however, I must admit has kindof whooshed me… I, too, swear I didn’t piss in your Cheerios, either. For one thing, I don’t really have the appropriate apparatus to make hitting it remotely likely from this distance. For another, I have no reason to. Care to 'splain what I’m obviously missing? **Shayna** isn’t the [Queen of the Jungle](http://www.toonopedia.com/sheena.htm). I bet she isn’t even a [punk rocker](http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/ramones,-the/113905.html). ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/666 "2004-08-24T20:06:19Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > When Kerry announced, “Reporting for duty”, it wasn’t Kerry that bugged me so much, it was a crowd that has a history of disparaging the military, suddenly fawning and doting over a “war hero”. > > Liberals make my skin crawl. > > Oh, and Elvis was a conservative. Since you have such a visceral reaction to people who want change, I don’t suppose it would do any good to explain the nuance that you can honor, revere, and hold in high esteem that somebody risked his life and served his country as a soldier well, while recognizing that the country should not have asked him, or any other Viet Nam vets, to take those risks. I’m picturing you like on that John McEnroe game show, where you have to concentrate on what I’m saying while fighting the urge to brush your skin manically. Elvis was also hopped up on goofballs. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/667 "2004-08-24T20:27:57Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > …This, however, I must admit has kindof whooshed me… I, too, swear I didn’t piss in your Cheerios, either. For one thing, I don’t really have the appropriate apparatus to make hitting it remotely likely from this distance. For another, I have no reason to. Care to 'splain what I’m obviously missing? Nothing. Nada. No derision intended. The merest, slightest, most whimsical bit of joke. (Gonna have to be more obvious…) Oh, I don’t eat Cheerios. Granola. ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/668 "2004-08-24T20:33:36Z")
My God, is this thread STILL going on? It’s amazing just how long the passionately deluded and a little cognitive dissonance can keep a thread going. The following has been unabashedly cribbed from l ast night’s Daily Show via Atrios. Enjoy, sane people. STEWART: Here’s what puzzles me most, Rob. John Kerry’s record in Vietnam is pretty much right there in the official records of the US military, and haven’t been disputed for 35 years? CORDDRY: That’s right, Jon, and that’s certainly the spin you’ll be hearing coming from the Kerry campaign over the next few days. STEWART: Th-that’s not a spin thing, that’s a fact. That’s established. CORDDRY: Exactly, Jon, and that established, incontravertible fact is one side of the story. STEWART: But that should be – isn’t that the end of the story? I mean, you’ve seen the records, haven’t you? What’s your opinion? CORDDRY: I’m sorry, my _opinion_? No, I don’t have ‘o-pin-i-ons’. I’m a reporter, Jon, and my job is to spend half the time repeating what one side says, and half the time repeating the other. Little thing called ‘objectivity’ – might wanna look it up some day. STEWART: Doesn’t objectivity mean objectively weighing the evidence, and calling out what’s credible and what isn’t? CORDDRY: Whoa-ho! Well, well, well – sounds like someone wants the media to act as a filter! [high-pitched, effeminate] ‘Ooh, this allegation is spurious! Upon investigation this claim lacks any basis in reality! Mmm, mmm, mmm.’ Listen buddy: not my job to stand between the people talking to me and the people listening to me. And, oh dear, turns out that Steve Gardner, another one of Kerry’s accusers is a liar. Surprise, surprise. [http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408240001](http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408240001) > [@](#): > > Stephen Gardner has been touted by the anti-Kerry group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and by conservative hosts as a singularly authoritative critic with firsthand knowledge of Senator John Kerry’s (D-MA) record in Vietnam because Gardner – unlike all the other members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth – actually served on a swift boat that Kerry commanded. Gardner has questioned Kerry’s integrity; has claimed personal knowledge of the circumstances leading to Kerry’s first Purple Heart; and has spoken with authority about the events leading to Kerry’s Bronze Star. > [@](#): > > Gardner admitted that “he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals,” reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage’s radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry’s three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was “not on the boat with him [Kerry]” when that injury occurred. Liars, liars, liars. The only reason this thread is still alive is because the Insane Clown Posse insists on keeping it on life support. Anyone want to help me forge a do-not-resussitate order? Cheerio. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/669 "2004-08-24T20:40:08Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Gee, what a surprise. When I leave a message that doesn’t include cites, suddenly the cite police show up. So I post a message heavily riddled with cites, and the response I get is a complete ad-hominem attack from Minty, in which not one of my points is addressed. Figures. > > Isn’t it just amazing how quickly you guys have to go for the personal attacks. It never fails. Just like clockwork. Drag up old threads, snark back and forth between yourselves about ‘Sammy’, and make it all personal. > > I don’t know why I’m bothering in this thread. At least Diogenes has stayed civil and debated the actual facts. For that he has my thanks. But of course, this was far too much to hope for from the likes of **Hentor** , **Minty Green** or **ElvisL1ves**. Are you guys ever going to grow up and stop personally attacking your fellow posters because you don’t like their arguments? When their arguments stop being crap. So, Sam, how often are you going to play the victim card, anyways? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/670 "2004-08-24T21:02:33Z")
And another one bites the dust… [http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040824\_1014.html](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040824_1014.html) **"Vets Protest Prosecutor in Anti-Kerry Ad"** "…Several Vietnam veterans are calling for an assistant district attorney to resign after questions were raised about his statement in a recent ad criticizing Democrat John Kerry’s military service. Alfred French of the Clackamas County district attorney’s office appears in the ad sponsored by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In the spot, French says: “I served with John Kerry. … He is lying about his record…” "…Before recording the ad, French signed an affidavit that said: “I am able to swear, as I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and _within my personal knowledge and belief_.” It goes on to say that “Kerry has wildly exaggerated and lied about his record in Vietnam” and that he received his Purple Heart medals “in the absence of hostile fire…” “…In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper last week, French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry and _did not personally witness the events_. French did not return two messages left at his office Monday…” (Emphasis added with contempt and disdain…neener-neener…) Legal Dopers question: is this sufficient grounds to file a Motion to Declare Lying Sack O’ Shit? ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/671 "2004-08-24T21:12:46Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > When their arguments stop being crap. > > So, Sam, how often are you going to play the victim card, anyways? > > -Joe Frankly, I’m not sure if Sam’s playing the victim card here. I’m reserving judgment and waiting for more information to come it. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/672 "2004-08-24T21:16:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Note that this is STEEL plate. Aluminum is much, much easier to penetrate. Which of course is why aluminum isn’t used as armor plating. > > Any more questions? Ahem. Site describing [some properties of aluminum armor.](http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article90.htm) The site is mainly concerned with aluminum armor vs. HE blast shrapnel there is this about armor piercing ammunition: “Although the resistance of this alloy to 0.3 inch armor-piercing (AP) attack is slightly less than that of steel, it is slightly better than steel for 14.5mm diameter AP …” ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/673 "2004-08-24T21:19:18Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Because watching Bush-apologists like **Sam Stone** and **Snakespirit** dance around the facts – that the Swift Bullshitters for Bush don’t have a lick of credibility remaining to them – is fun, in a perverse political sorta way. Man, you are clueless! I’m a Kerry supporter! Bush doesn’t deserve the time of day. If you’re gonna attack people, at least read the posts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/674 "2004-08-24T21:23:13Z")
To be scrupulously fair, **Snake** , I had the same impression. I have little doubt that others here share that impression. What we have here is a failure to communicate? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/675 "2004-08-24T21:39:44Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Ahem. Site describing [some properties of aluminum armor.](http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article90.htm) > > The site is mainly concerned with aluminum armor vs. HE blast shrapnel there is this about armor piercing ammunition: > > “Although the resistance of this alloy to 0.3 inch armor-piercing (AP) attack is slightly less than that of steel, it is slightly better than steel for 14.5mm diameter AP …” 14.5 mm, that’s about .61 caliber! Has nothing to do with 7.62 mm (.30 caliber) One thing I wish is that first people in this thread would read the posts they are replying to. There’s more knee-jerk reaction misinterpretation than anything else in these, what is it now, 13? pages. Second, I wish people only posted when they know what they are talking about rather than rapidly searching for anything that remotely looks in their favor and posting it. Third, I would love it if people could be objective, but not in emotional politics, I suppose. Not here, not this election. Fourth, I wish this ridiculous thread would go away! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/676 "2004-08-24T21:47:26Z")
I hereby promise and aver that, under no circumstances, will I force friend **SnakeSpirit** to post again, and am heartily sorry that I have compelled him to post by psychic powers. _Egotist te absolvo_, go, and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/677 "2004-08-24T21:49:24Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And here’s the [Washington Post’s recreation map](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/graphics/swiftboat_082104.html) of the incident. Note that it shows that Kerry left the scene while the other boats went to the aid of PCF-3. It also shows that there were no boats behind Rassman to run him down, and that the other boats did not leave the scene as Rassman said. What your cite shows me in the drawing at the bottom of the page is that Kerry and Skees approached the fishing wier in line abreast, Skees on the near side and Kerry on the far. As they were about to pass through the gaps in the wier Skees boat was blown up by the mine as Kerry went on through his gap. The other two boats were following and were in position to divert and go to Skees aid while Kerry would have to turn around, come back through the wier and cross the river. Why should he do that when there was already adequate aid and a third rescuer might be in the way and mainly a lookey-loo. Kerry then discovered that Rassman had fallen overboard, turned and went back to pick him up. Your statement that there were no boats behind Rassman to run him down is puzzling. Is the lack of danger of being his run down by one of your own boats a reason to leave someone floating in a hostile river? I cannot find any fault with Kerry’s actionl. I don’t know what the agreed upon procedure was and neither do you. The boats were going down stream with Kerry and Peez in the lead and the other two boats following. Peez is blown up and the following boats go to his aid. Kerry continues the advance downriver until he returns to retrieve a man overboard. If, as Thurlow claims, there was no fire on the three boats involved in the rescue of Skees then continuing down river isn’t really all that cowardly is it? After all with no firing on the rescue and two boats already there why should Kerry go back? If he had it would probably be claimed that he was grandstanding. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/678 "2004-08-24T21:50:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > To be scrupulously fair, **Snake** , I had the same impression. I have little doubt that others here share that impression. > > What we have here is a failure to communicate? Yes. I think that’s it exactly. Hard to communicate when one is intoxicated with righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/679 "2004-08-24T22:05:09Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > > [@David Simmons](#): > > > > “Although the resistance of this alloy to\*\* 0.3 inch armor-piercing (AP)\*\* attack is slightly less than that of steel, it is slightly better than steel for\*\* 14.5mm diameter AP\*\* …” > > 14.5 mm, that’s about .61 caliber! Has nothing to do with 7.62 mm (.30 caliber) Sigh. I’m going to hate myself, but I wish people would actually read the post before replying. Armor piercing .3 in. ammo is pretty close to .30 caliber. And armor piercing means designed to pierce armor, at least I think it does. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/680 "2004-08-24T22:05:33Z")
Where was is stated that the river was 75 yards wide? I’ve seemed to have missed that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=35)