# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/701 "2004-08-25T01:19:55Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > **voir dire** : . . . What the fuck are you, French or something? You make me _malade_, uh, I mean sick. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/702 "2004-08-25T01:37:09Z")
[Attorney works for Bush, anti-Kerry group](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/2004/08/24/attorney_works_for_bush_anti_kerry_group/) > [@](#): > > A lawyer for President Bush’s re-election campaign disclosed Tuesday that he has been providing legal advice for a veterans group that is challenging Democratic Sen. John Kerry’s account of his Vietnam War service. > > Benjamin Ginsberg’s acknowledgment marks the second time in days that an individual associated with the Bush-Cheney campaign has been connected to the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/703 "2004-08-25T02:12:58Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I’m not familiar with the contents of Kerry’s diary. Is it possible that since these missions were clandestine (and Kerry had high intelligence clearance) that if he _did_ go into Cambodia, he wouldn’t have written about it in his diary and that might explain why that was his last entry? What do _you_ think? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/704 "2004-08-25T02:15:54Z")
I just saw a report on CNN which played a recording of John O’Neill telling Nixon in 1971 that he WAS in Camodia on a swift boat.!!! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/705 "2004-08-25T02:32:55Z")
Impossible. Everyone knows the border was barricaded, heavily guarded, and well-defined. Plus, you’d get court-martialed in a heartbeat if you went anywhere near it. Or even thought about it. Also, the Swift boats were incapable of navigating Cambodian waters. So take it all back, you filthy liar. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/706 "2004-08-25T02:35:44Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I just saw a report on CNN which played a recording of John O’Neill telling Nixon in 1971 that he WAS in Camodia on a swift boat.!!! Oh my. They really are going down point by point, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/707 "2004-08-25T02:36:37Z")
We must try and be fair about this. Young O’Neil was in the presence of Nixon, who’s effect on truth is much the same as a black hole affects space/time. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/708 "2004-08-25T02:37:46Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Impossible. Everyone knows the border was barricaded, heavily guarded, and well-defined. In fact I’ve heard there were big signs just this side of the Cambodian border saying “LAST CHANCE FOR GAS AT VIET NAM PRICES!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/709 "2004-08-25T02:39:05Z")
Got a link, **CB**? Are there any SBVT members left whose testimony doesn’t have colossal holes in it, like this one? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/710 "2004-08-25T02:40:32Z")
Got a link, **CB**? Are there any SBVT “witnesses” left who _haven’t_ been proved to be self-contradicting liars? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/711 "2004-08-25T02:41:31Z")
The thing about the lawyer’s a little hard to buy. Not that its too sleazy, Heaven knows, but kinda like arriving at the murder scene and finding the gun registed to Vito Corleone with his fingerprints all over it. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/712 "2004-08-25T02:58:25Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Got a link, **CB**? > > Are there any SBVT “witnesses” left who _haven’t_ been proved to be self-contradicting liars? No link, I saw it on Aaron Brown’s Newsnight. It showed a video of O’Neill with Nixon. O’Neill said he had been in Cambodia and patrolled the Cambodian border. Nixon asked him “On a swiftboat?” And O’Neill said yes, on a swiftboat. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/713 "2004-08-25T03:06:45Z")
Just out of curiosity, was O’Neill saying that he’d been in Cambodia in '71, or saying in '71 that he’d been in Cambodia at some earlier date? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/714 "2004-08-25T03:15:18Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Just out of curiosity, was O’Neill saying that he’d been in Cambodia in '71, or saying in '71 that he’d been in Cambodia at some earlier date? It didn’t say when he was there. But according to the report I saw, apparently O’Neill is on record at a later date saying that he was never in Cambodia. It was questioning O’Neill’s credibility and honesty. The date of his Cambodian incurdion(s) is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/715 "2004-08-25T03:24:45Z")
**CBEscapee** , he was on This Week on Sunday saying just that. Here’s a transcript from Atrios. I don’t know where he got it, but it seems consistent with my recollection of what O’Neill said. > [@](#): > > JOHN O’NEILL: The whole country’s watching him avoid the question. You asked about Cambodia. How do I know he’s not in Cambodia? I was on the same river, George. I was there two months after him. Our patrol area ran to Sedek, it was 50 miles from Cambodia. There isn’t any watery border. The Mekong River’s like the Mississippi. There were gunboats stationed right up there to stop people from coming. And our boats didn’t go north of, only slightly north of Sedek. So it was a made up story. He’s told it over 50 times, George, that was on the floor of the Senate. He wrote articles about it, it was a malicious story because it painted all the guys above him, all of the commanding officers, in effect, as war criminals, that had ordered him into a neutral country, it was a lie. [http://atrios.blogspot.com/](http://atrios.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/716 "2004-08-25T04:14:20Z")
[From Swiftboats.net](http://www.swiftvets.com/): > [@](#): > > For Immediate Release > > Tuesday, August 24, 2004 > > KERRY CAMPAIGN BACKTRACKS ON FIRST PURPLE HEART AWARD > Campaign Says May Have Been Self-Inflicted > > Washington—In a reversal of their staunch defense of John Kerry’s military service record, Kerry campaign officials were quoted by Fox News saying that it was indeed possible that John Kerry’s first Purple Heart commendation was the result of an, unintentional, self-inflicted wound." > “GARRETT: And questions keep coming. For example, Kerry received a Purple Heart for wounds suffered on December 2, 1968. But in Kerry’s own journal written nine days later, he writes he and his crew, quote, “hadn’t been shot at yet,” unquote. Kerry’s campaign has said it is possible this first Purple Heart was awarded for an unintentional self-inflicted wound – Brit.” (Special Report with Brit Hume Aug.23, 2004) > A recent television ad from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth featured Doctor Louis Letson who treated Kerry for his minor injury and Grant Hibbard who served as John Kerry’s direct commander on the mission where he claimed his medal. Both men say Kerry did not deserve the medal given the fact that Kerry received a very minor wound requiring no more than band-aid treatment and because the wound was not a direct result of hostile fire, a requirement for a Purple Heart commendation. > “When Grant Hibbard and Doctor Letson appeared in our ad, they were attacked and vilified by the Kerry campaign but now we see news reports saying the Kerry campaign is now sheepishly acknowledging that what we said was true,” said Admiral Hoffmann, founder of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. “John Kerry’s own journal reinforces the fact that neither Kerry nor his crew had seen hostile enemy action. John Kerry’s first Purple Heart medal is based on fiction.” > Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is calling on the Kerry campaign to apologize to Grant Hibbard and Doctor Letson as the men did nothing more than come forward to speak the truth about the situation involving John Kerry’s first Purple Heart medal. > This is not the only incident in which Kerry campaign officials have changed their story concerning Kerry’s prestigious war medals. The incident on the Bay Hap River in which Kerry received his third Purple Heart and Bronze Star has also been the subject of considerable waffling by Kerry officials. > During the Democratic National Convention, Kerry used the Bay Hap River incident to suggest that he alone returned to rescue Jim Rassmann—a Special Forces solider—who was on Kerry’s boat and was tossed into the river. Kerry described this incident to the American people as “No man left behind.” > However Kerry officials were forced to acknowledge that Kerry’s boat actually left the scene when another swift boat—operating on the other side of the river—was damaged by an underwater mine. Kerry officials now admit that Kerry’s boat returned after several minutes to pull Rassmann from the water while three other swift boats remained on site to render assistance to the injured crew of the one damaged boat. Campaign officials once claimed that Kerry returned to the scene under withering hostile fire to rescue Rassmann after all the other swift boats left. But other accounts from eyewitnesses of that day confirm that the other boats stayed on site and that Kerry returned to the scene, facing no enemy fire, only seconds before another swift boat was preparing to retrieve Mr. Rassmann from the water. > > “John Kerry’s stories are falling apart,” added Hoffmann. His statements don’t even match up with his own journal entries. We are going to continue telling the truth about John Kerry’s military service record so that the American people can make their own decisions about John Kerry’s qualifications to be the next Commander in Chief." > > Direct media inquiries to [media@swiftvets.com](mailto:media@swiftvets.com). ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/717 "2004-08-25T04:20:40Z")
**Sam** , was that in response to a request for a cite for the “Kerry campaign says self-inflicted” meme? If so, that’s mere repetition, not proof. Try something with the Kerry spokesperson’s actual words in it. Any comment on the obvious lie of O’Neill re Cambodia? I believe this requires that you immediately disavow your earlier points on signs, border crossings, noisy swift boats and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/718 "2004-08-25T04:33:09Z")
What exactly is Kerry “backtracking” from? When did he ever say that he was wounded by enemy fire? For the record, here is Kerry’s own account of how he was wounded. > [@](#): > > “Then, very early in the morning, around 2:00 or 3:00, while it was still dark, we proceeded up the tiny inlet between the island and the peninsula to the point designated as our objective. The jungle closed in on us on both sides. It was scary as hell. You could hear yourself breathing. We were almost touching the shore. Suddenly, through the magnified moonlight of the infrared ‘starlight scope,’ I watched, mesmerized, as a group of sampans glided in toward the shore. We had been briefed that this was a favorite crossing area for VC trafficking contraband.” > > With its motor turned off, Kerry paddled the Boston Whaler out of the inlet into the beginning of the bay. Simultaneously the Vietnamese pulled their sampans up onto the beach and began to unload something; he couldn’t tell what, so he decided to illuminate the proceedings with a flare. The entire sky seemed to explode into daylight. The men from the sampans bolted erect, stiff with shock for only an instant before they sprang for cover like a herd of panicked gazelles Kerry had once seen on TV’s Wild Kingdom. “We opened fire,” he went on. "The light from the flares started to fade, the air was full of explosions. **My M-16 jammed, and as I bent down in the boat to grab another gun, a stinging piece of heat socked into my arm and just seemed to burn like hell. By this time one of the sailors had started the engine and we ran by the beach, strafing it. Then it was quiet.** > > “We stayed quiet and low because we did not want to illuminate ourselves at that point,” Kerry explained. “In the dead of night, without any knowledge of what kind of force was there, we were not all about to go crawling on the beach to get our asses shot off. We were unprotected; we didn’t have ammunition, we didn’t have cover, we just weren’t prepared for that . . . So we first shot the sampans so that they were destroyed and whatever was in them was destroyed.” Then their cover boat warned of a possible VC ambush in the small channel they had to exit through, and Kerry and company departed the area. As you can plainly see, Kerry states only that he felt something hit his arm. He does not say that he knew what it was. He is not now “backtracking” but only honestly admitting that he didn’t know where the shrapnel came from and acknowledging that it could have been his own blow back. I cited earlier in this thread a statement by one of Kerry’s shipmates which indicates that he believes they _did_ receive enemy fire that night. This stayement by Kerry is not anything at variance with anything he’s always said. They were engaged with the enemy. He got hit by shrapnel. He doesn’t know where the shrapnel came from. It could have been hostile, it could have been friendly. Nobody knows. I don’t know, you don’t know, the Swifties don’t know. The military cares not. Combatants are not expected to keep track of every piece of shrapnel that flies during a fire fight. If get hit, you get a PH. There isn’t any news here. The Swifties are trumpeting a phony victory. Kerry has admitted nothing new and it isn’t remotely relevant as to the legitimacy of his PH. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/719 "2004-08-25T04:34:33Z")
So that’s todays news from the Swifties, huh? Must have been working against deadline. Maybe the phone went dead, and the TV too. All information sources cut suddenly, yeah, that must be it… Because they missed the story about how two more of the guys in the picture, guys that they claimed were sworn to thier cause, have demanded that thier names be removed from thier ad. Missed the story about the attorney they share with the Bush campaign. Missed the story about O’Neill telling Nixon he was in Cambodia. In a Swift boat. Where it was impossible. According to him, at any rate. They also seem to have missed the story about how that fellow Gardner, the one guy that they got who was actually _on_ Kerry’s boat, says he wasn’t on the boat during the newsworthy moments. Must have also missed the story about that French fellow, the one who lied in his affidavit, swearing he personally witnessed something he had not witnessed. But, hey, we know how it is! You hang around the office till around, oh, 11 a.m., nothings happening so you close up and go get drunk. Probably they’ll explain all this stuff when they update tomorrow, huh, **Sam**? You think? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/720 "2004-08-25T04:47:12Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > **Sam** , was that in response to a request for a cite for the “Kerry campaign says self-inflicted” meme? If so, that’s mere repetition, not proof. Try something with the Kerry spokesperson’s actual words in it. > > Any comment on the obvious lie of O’Neill re Cambodia? I believe this requires that you immediately disavow your earlier points on signs, border crossings, noisy swift boats and so on. In actual fact I don’t think that the [Purple Heart eligibility requirements](http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/ph.shtml) specify that the wound has to be a _result_ of action by the enemy. It is awarded for any wound that requires treatment by a doctor regardless of cause received in action against an enemy. The baloney about “self inflicted” is just that. It is, I think, recognized that mistakes happen and friendlies wound each other and themselves by accident in the turmoil of the moment. Such wounds are eligible as I read the requirements listed in the site cited. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=37)