# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/761 "2004-08-25T14:40:27Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > On a happier note, [Drudge](http://drudgereport.com/) is reporting that according to Bookscan, _Unfit for Command_ is the best selling book in the nation. Heh, thanks for the publicity, Mssr.Kerry. Great, now the Swifties have a source of income besides the Bush campaign! ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/762 "2004-08-25T15:23:57Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Heh, thanks for the publicity, Mssr.Kerry. I’m not sure how much thanks you can give to Kerry. He remained pretty tight lipped about the whole think to a point that members of his own party were complaining that he needed to respond. ONly after it had been blown out of proportion did he respond. I think you can thank that pesky liberal media for the free publicity. ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/763 "2004-08-25T15:37:31Z")
Thanks for the bullet points, **Diogenes the Cynic** - very helpful. A question, if this is not too much of a hijack. What are the consequences if it is determined that the Bush campaign has been actively working with the SBVTs? Will it then be just a matter for the court of public opinion, or are there actual legal actions that can be taken that will affect the Bush campaign? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/764 "2004-08-25T15:40:02Z")
> [@Spree](#): > > Thanks for the bullet points, **Diogenes the Cynic** - very helpful. > > A question, if this is not too much of a hijack. What are the consequences if it is determined that the Bush campaign has been actively working with the SBVTs? Will it then be just a matter for the court of public opinion, or are there actual legal actions that can be taken that will affect the Bush campaign? Well one clue is to ask yourself whether the Bushistas are outraged at the half-truths, distortions and outright misinformation that was used to justify the Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/765 "2004-08-25T15:54:28Z")
That’s what I was afraid of. Forget Bushitas, though, I’m really more interested in the swing voters. Why should the Bush campaign care if there is nothing that can be done to them anyway from a legal standpoint? Where is the risk? I just don’t really see this blowing up on them, no matter what connections come to light. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/766 "2004-08-25T16:35:40Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** **Elucidator** , it’s really not necessary to use racial slurs (“cracker” and “peckerwood”) to make your point. So please don’t do it… While I can be persuaded that you feel impelled to be even-handed in all circumstances, this is nonsense. While such terms as “peckerwood” and “cracker” may well be mildly perjorative, in certain circles, they are by no stretch of the imagination “racial epithets”. I was born peckerwood, and consider the term indicative of no more than affectionate disdain. James Carville frequently refers to himself as a “coon-ass”, being a native of Louisiana. Bill Clinton oftimes refers to himself as a “hillbilly”. These are not racial slurs. Have you ever known anyone to sidle up to such and make glancing reference, like saying “the n-word”, which is entirely proper when dealing with something as reprehensible as an actual racial slur? As well, I have on many occassions used the term “peckerwood” in reference to myself, or another Texan (though I would naturally stop short of accusing someone of being an “Aggie” without actual proof…) To date, this is my first rebuke for such. As you reside in Georgia, do you recall anyone recoiling in shock and dismay at the word “cracker”, (as would be entirely appropriate for an _actual_ “racial slur”, none of which I will dignify by usage, even for purposes of example). Is there a recent memo that I have overlooked? Please be assured that the esteem and reverence with which I regard those who sit at the Right Hand of Cecil is undiminished. But you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/767 "2004-08-25T16:37:27Z")
This just in- [the March 18, 1969 weekly report from Task Group 115](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/) corraborates Kerry’s version of the events. > [@](#): > > The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it “an enemy initiated firefight” that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry’s. > [@](#): > > The document, part of thousands of pages of records housed at the Naval Historical Center, is one of several that say Kerry and other servicemen were shot at from the banks of the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969. The Associated Press located the document Tuesday during a search of available records. How can any rational human take the Swifties seriously as they _continue_ to deny the official records: > [@](#): > > A member of the group, Larry Thurlow, said Tuesday he stood by his assertion that there was no enemy fire that day. Thurlow, the commander of another boat who also won a Bronze Star, said task force commanders probably relied on the initial report of the incident. Thurlow says Kerry wrote that report. Mr. Thurlow, precisely what would be Kerry’s motivation in making up the story? And why would his entire crew back him up on it? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/768 "2004-08-25T16:48:17Z")
> [@Spree](#): > > I just don’t really see this blowing up on them, no matter what connections come to light. Some people do not like even the appearance of impropriety. The [resignation of Bush’s lawyer](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/veterans_group_bush) sends the signal that all was not kosher in Ginsberg’s interactions with the swift boaters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/769 "2004-08-25T17:08:53Z")
Oh, but it gets better! This just in, courtesy of the wonderful folks over at _Washington Monthly_ previously incarnated as _Calpundit_ (Note: excerpt includes links that require registration, reproduced “as is”, since it is fair to assume that they aren’t “making shit up”…) > [@](#): > > …An article that appeared in the _Philadelphia Inquirer_ just two weeks ago included this bit about Ginsberg: “Ben Ginsberg, a legal adviser to the Bush campaign, specifically condemned the dual roles played by Democrats Harold Ickes and Bill Richardson, who had official roles at the convention and also within prominent friendly 527s. ‘They’re over the coordination line,’ Ginsberg said of Ickes and Richardson. 'The whole notion of cutting off links between public officeholders and soft-money groups just got exploded.”… > > To make things even better, Ginsberg doesn’t just advise the Swift Boat Guys – a role he will no doubt seriously downplay over the next few days. He serves as the official chief counsel to Progress for America, another 527 that, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, exists to “form ‘issue truth squads’ that respond to Democratic attacks on President Bush.” > > I know these guys are shameless, but still. … I don’t think they are “shameless”. I just think they have gotten away with it so long, they think they need not pay heed to the ordinary niceties that bind ordinary folks. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/770 "2004-08-25T17:16:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > James Carville frequently refers to himself as a “coon-ass”, being a native of Louisiana. Minor note, for those unfamiliar. Coon-ass does not mean black. It means cajun. I believe it doesn’t qualify as a racial slur. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/771 "2004-08-25T17:29:31Z")
[Aside: good clarification, **E-Sabbath**. Its a common mistake, like the ignorant presumption that Texas is part of “the South”, and I overlooked it…) Now this, from _Talking Points Memo_, without which no citizen can hope to be well informed… > [@](#): > > …The Kerry campaign is sending Max Cleland and Jim Rassman down to the president’s ‘ranch’ to hand deliver a letter signed by seven veterans serving in the United States Senate asking Bush to “recognize this blatant attempt at character assassination, and publicly condemn it.”… They’re fighting back! They’re _actually_ rarin’ up on thier hind legs and _fighting back!_ Hallelujah! Of course, they’re likely to be disappointed, GeeBubbya is probably out clearing brush, tending to the ranch, ya know, been in the family for months… (Dear Mr. Cleland: Revenge is sweet, and you heartily deserve your pound of flesh! May I respectfully suggest you find some way to work the phrase “Let’s roll!” into the mix, as you roll your wheelchair into the fray! Sic 'em, Max! Sir.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/772 "2004-08-25T18:07:14Z")
This just in: Cleland unsuccessful in delivering letter. No word yet on what lame-ass excuse was offered. Mealy-mouthed, back-stabbing chickenshits. ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/773 "2004-08-25T18:09:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Yeah, **braintree** , [I have a cite.](http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/9490641.htm?1c) This was an admission from the Kerry campaign, just as good as an admission from him. > > I don’t think you can get more authoritative than that, and nobody seems to be arguing this particular point anymore. > > Except you. Glad to see your standard of proof when it comes to questioning Mr. Kerry’s character remains the same, Mr. Moto — thus showing everyone just how well qualified you are for the position. First off, there is no direct, verifiable quote from the Kerry campaign in the cite you gave. It gives a general description saying that the Kerry campaign has conceded the point but no name and no direct quote, which makes it, at best, a secondary source. Here I’ll show you. > [@Philadelphia Inquirer](#): > > Kerry’s representatives have since conceded that the candidate was mistaken regarding what had been seared in his memory, but insist that he did indeed eventually make it to Cambodia, though no corroboration has been provided and none of his crewmates can remember being there. Brinkley also says Kerry did go to Cambodia - though not at Christmas in 1968. See? Not only is the authoritativeness you just boasted about a figment of your imagination but it reads an awful lot like an urban legend. I’m not saying such a quote doesn’t exist for sure but you have clearly failed to find one. Secondly, I am NOT the only one still arguing the point. That idea is also a figment of your imagination. Fred Kaplan is a highly respected journalist has written an article for Slate saying that YES Kerry DID spend Christmas in Cambodia. Since you appear to have missed the link the first two times, I’ll happily give it again. > **[Demolishing the "Christmas Eve" attack on Kerry.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/08/demolishing-the-christmas-eve-attack-on-kerry.html)** > > It is a twisted state of affairs that George W. Bush's most avid surrogates are trying to make this election turn on the question of whether Lt. John... Thirdly, I really wish you would explain to us why you seem to have such a ball attacking Kerry’s character but don’t seem to care about the fact that George Bush, the President of the United States is a repeatedly-exposed lying sack of shinola. I mean, here’s a guy who uses henchmen to question a decorated veteran’s character by lying their heads off when he himself used his daddy’s connections to get a safe slot in the Texas Air National Guard and then couldn’t be bothered to finish his minimal requirement and then, here’s a surprise, lied about it. I mean, if character is such an important issue for you and everything, shouldn’t you be attacking Bush? Why not? See, where you and I differ is that I think that it’s the lying, irresponsible coward who’s character ought to be attacked — to say nothing of the character assassins who are doing his dirty work for him and let’s not forget their eagarly gullible fan base. I would submit that, on the surface at least, it’s a reasonable-sounding position. Obviously, you disagree. So, tell me. What are the errors of my ways? ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/774 "2004-08-25T18:17:47Z")
Did I miss a mention of [thid editorial by Bill O’Reilly](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/story/222652p-191113c.html), or didn’t it come up yet? > [@Bill O'Reilly](#): > > Adm. Elmo Zumwalt pinned a medal on John Kerry’s chest. The record is the record unless rock-solid proof refutes it. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/775 "2004-08-25T18:19:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How can any rational human take the Swifties seriously as they _continue_ to deny the official records: I assure you it’s all because the _liberal media_ controls all information. All of it is pure bullshit, with only people like SBVFTs trying to valiantly hold their candle against the hurricane of _liberal_ lies! Keep in mind, too, some people have thrown their lots in the The Shrub, and will fight tooth and nail to try to make sure the nation “stays the course”. Kind of like cornered rats…but less cuddly. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/776 "2004-08-25T18:39:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > A member of the group, Larry Thurlow, said Tuesday he stood by his assertion that there was no enemy fire that day. Thurlow, the commander of another boat who also won a Bronze Star, said task force commanders probably relied on the initial report of the incident. Thurlow says Kerry wrote that report. > > Mr. Thurlow, precisely what would be Kerry’s motivation in making up the story? And why would his entire crew back him up on it? I wonder if Mr. Thurlow is also planning on giving up his Bronze Star. I mean, if he’s telling the truth _now_, then that means he _lied_ back then in order to fraudulently get his Bronze Star. That accusation he’s directing at Kerry points both ways, after all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/777 "2004-08-25T18:49:01Z")
Mr. Thurlow’s stance is to suggest that he was unaware of the specifics of his award, believing that his courage in rescuing fellow Swifties was being rewarded even though they were not under fire. This account is, as noted, rebutted by numerous and sundry testimonials, and official reports. Apparently, Mr. Thurlow believes he was rewarded and bemedaled for his dauntless courage in jumping into the water without floatation devices or water wings. Or, at least, that is what he would have _us_ believe. I doubt that my opinion on his viewpoint needs restating. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/778 "2004-08-25T18:49:57Z")
One great commentary, like the ones you’ll rarely see in the “liberal” media mainstream: [http://www.democraticunderground.com/plaidder/04/27.html](http://www.democraticunderground.com/plaidder/04/27.html) > [@](#): > > The Old Lie > August 25, 2004 > > … > > Looked at in the cold light of reason, the whole SVAK campaign is ridiculous. The most serious charge they’re making is that Kerry didn’t serve his time in Vietnam with quite as much distinction as the Navy thought he did. Even if you accepted that argument, Kerry would still beat Bush quite handily in a game of “who served better” or “who sacrificed more” - after all, even for the SVAK and their Republican sponsors, it would just be too big a lie to try to claim that Kerry didn’t actually go to Vietnam, which would be the only way to make George W. Bush’s stint in (or out of) the Texas National Guard look any better by comparison. > > The real point of these ads is to attack what the rhetoricians would call Kerry’s ethos - the qualities that make him credible and trustworthy to those all-important “undecided voters.” As constructed by the Kerry campaign and especially at the Democratic National Convention, Kerry’s ethos is almost entirely dependent on his status as a decorated war veteran. The Bush campaign knows perfectly well that if they want to beat Kerry they will have to render him as untrustworthy as their own candidate, and the only way to do that is to take those medals away from him. > > They can’t, of course, do that by telling the truth; but if anyone on the Bush team gave a damn about the truth, we wouldn’t be fighting a war in Iraq right now. > > And that’s what this is all really about. Not good enough, as many on the right will dismiss any opinion from the left; so, lets get an opinion from a veteran then: [http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/08/25\_unfit.html](http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/08/25_unfit.html) > [@](#): > > Unfit – My Letter To The Swift Boat Organization > August 25, 2004 > By John Cory > …… > I crawled the mud paddies of Vietnam and stuck my fingers in the gaping wounds, trying to stop the oozing blood that drained the life from my fellow soldiers. I have walked the old paths of war and seen the children that even today lose limbs from the unexploded ordinance of yesterday’s war. I have seen more honor and compassion in the eyes of the men who were once my enemy, than in the twisted piety of your vitriolic defamation. > You now seek to cover your previous words of endorsement with the stench of vomit and partisan bile. You speak of wanting honesty and openness, but your actions belie your lips. > You have chosen vanity over valor, hubris over honor, character assassination and fraud over fact. You have chosen to enfold yourself in the shadows of partisan politics while sniping at those who stand in the open light of their record. You have chosen to wear the uniform of shame. > No sirs, with all due respect, I submit that it is you, who are Unfit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/779 "2004-08-25T18:58:51Z")
Is this just in? With all the bullshit flying through the air, and the rebuttals following swiftly on its heels, its hard to know… [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/) > [@](#): > > …The Navy task force overseeing John Kerry’s swift boat squadron in Vietnam reported that his group of boats came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, incident that three decades later is being challenged by the Democratic presidential nominee’s critics. > > The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry’s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart… Zippidy-do-dah, zippedy-ay, my oh my what a wonderful day Plenty of anguish, coming their way Zippidy-do-dah, zippidy aaayyyyyyyy… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/780 "2004-08-25T19:02:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mr. Thurlow’s stance is to suggest that he was unaware of the specifics of his award, believing that his courage in rescuing fellow Swifties was being rewarded even though they were not under fire. This account is, as noted, rebutted by numerous and sundry testimonials, and official reports. > > Apparently, Mr. Thurlow believes he was rewarded and bemedaled for his dauntless courage in jumping into the water without floatation devices or water wings. Or, at least, that is what he would have _us_ believe. > > I doubt that my opinion on his viewpoint needs restating. It also requires us to believe that Thurlow never once bothered to read the text of his own citation- something that would indicate a lack of vanity on a par with Jesus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=40)