# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/61 "2004-08-06T02:04:40Z")
> [@Shrill Swiftboaters](#): > > The letter goes on to make several more misleading statements Misleading statements in their ad, misleading statements in the letter. Tit for tat for Tet. Sam, I used to work in law, and the letter is pretty par for the course. What used to be making a compelling case is really just threatening to throw the biggest, scariest, piece of poop you can and hope the other side backs down. Just google “cease and desist” for some fine examples of lawyerly feces flinging. It’s hardly the sole domain of the DNC attack dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/62 "2004-08-06T02:23:46Z")
I can believe that. But coming from a political campaign, it’s dangerous. If Kerry is perceived as trying to intimidate critics, it could be a problem. And two wrongs don’t make a right. Again, if the Bush administration had tried this on Michael Moore, we’d still be hearing squealing about the crushing of dissent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/63 "2004-08-06T02:43:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Indeed, friend \*\* McGiver\*\*, might you be a bit more specific? What, precisely, are these unseemly activities to which you refer so discreetly? We’re all grownups here, we can take it. I dunno, I waited 6 months for the swift boat vets to bubble up to the surface. Since it represents the official start of Mud-fest 2004 I expected it in mid-September. Theresa Heinze is a 2 part story, one of which she has not written yet. Can’t discuss it yet because mama always told me not to talk ill of folks (and I have always enjoyed the wait). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/64 "2004-08-06T02:50:43Z")
**Sam** , I’m behind you a thousand percent! I think [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) should sponsor the ad to run everywhere! With all the facts out there, who’s talking, what their actual relationship to Kerry was/is. An annotated version, as it were. America should see the ad. It is a classic, it is the acme of insinuation. I want a PBS special on the ad, bringing out every detail. Like that guy who claims there was no action on the day Kerry earned his bronze star. The same guy who accepted a bronze star for _his_ part in the non-existent action. I want profiles of the men who made this ad, who they worked for, what they’ve accomplished in their professional lives. Kerry shouldn’t try to squelch this ad. Kerry should _flaunt_ this ad. Maybe there’s some way to work in that quote from McCain, about how its exactly what they did to him. [Cartman] Sweeeeeeet![/Cartman] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/65 "2004-08-06T02:51:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, migod! A _were_-liberal! OK, that made me laugh out loud. Liberals have a sense of humor. Hey I heard the Swift Boat guys got their clock cleaned by net dogs. Do you think this is a precursor to the expected disruption of the Republican convention that has been alleged by talk radio? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/66 "2004-08-06T04:09:07Z")
**So who’s bankrolling the ads?** [Texan Bankrolls Anti-Kerry Vets Group](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=6&u=/ap/20040805/ap_on_el_pr/republican_donor) > [@](#): > > Houston homebuilder Bob J. Perry has donated at least $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a suburban Washington-based group airing a new ad in which Vietnam veterans who served on swiftboats accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his war record. > The group bought $500,000 of airtime for the 60-second ad to air in the battleground states of Wisconsin, Ohio and West Virginia. > … > Perry’s June donation accounted for most of the $158,750 that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, founded in April, reported raising as of June 30. I hope they’ve gotten another $350,000 from _somewhere_, so the checks don’t bounce. 😉 But on to Bob J. Perry: The [Council for National Policy](http://www.SeekGod.ca/cnp.htm) (Motto **Seek God… Trust God… Love God…** ) website has this short biography of Perry: > [@](#): > > Robert J. Perry - CNP Board of Governors 1982, Vice President Executive Committee,1984-85, member 1988; President of Perry-Houston Interests, Inc., a member of the Board of Directors of the Houston, Texas Chamber of Commerce; executive board Boy Scouts of America; former Citizen member, state banking board of Texas; member the Heritage Club. **What’s the CNP?** In addition to such luminaries as Oliver North, and Anita Bryant, “Many Evangelical, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Catholic, Mormon and other ecumenically-minded leaders are members of the Council for National Policy,the 500+ member organization which plans the strategyof the Religious Right in the United States.” _ibid_ **How big a republican is Bob Perry?** Pretty big: [GOP Group Discloses Fundraising Sources](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A51112-2000Oct20¬Found=true) > [@](#): > > A political group allied with House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) raised nearly $500,000… > The committee’s largest donors included Amway co-founder Richard DeVos Sr., who gave $150,000; Enron Corp. Chairman **Kenneth Lay** , who donated $50,000; Texas home builder **Bob Perry** , who gave $50,000; Houston apartment developer Michael Stevens, who contributed $50,000; and Christian broadcasting magnate Edward Atsinger Jr., who gave more than $23,000. **Does dirt stick to Bob Perry?** Not yet, but it’s trying pretty hard: [Did Bob Perry use and influential lobbying firm to circumvent judicial campaign caps?](http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1664) > [@](#): > > On December 3, 2001, the HillCo PAC contribution pattern changed. On that date, HillCo client Bob Perry gave the PAC $5,000, the single largest contribution from a non-HillCo partner. Three months later Perry gave the HillCo PAC $30,000. On June 14, 2002, Perry, whose company, Perry Homes, is the ninth-largest homebuilder in Texas, gave the HillCo PAC $15,000. Later that summer, he gave another $10,000, and in November yet another $40,000. In total, between 2001 and 2003, Perry would donate about $200,000 to HillCo’s PAC. \*\*Is Bob Perry a close personal friend of president Bush? \*\*Well, [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov) doesn’t list him as having stayed overnight in the Lincoln bedroom. Maybe Mr. Bush and Mr. Perry have never even met. Texas is a BIG state :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/67 "2004-08-06T04:30:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It is a classic, it is the acme of insinuation. Rush does better most everyday. Rush is a true master of language. Rumsfled sounds like a tongue tied teenager compare to Mr. Limbaugh. These guys are good. I’ll give you that. But the acme? Pert near. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/68 "2004-08-06T04:31:47Z")
Oh, give me a break. That’s the best you can do for a conspiracy? Let’s see… A big rich Texan turns out to be a Republican? Who’d a thunk it? And he decides to slide some money to a bunch of guys who are going to stick it to Kerry. From this, you deduce that he’s a shill for the Bush campaign. And why do these funding cpnspiracies only crop up when it’s a Democrat being attacked? When Republicans get attacked by someone, I don’t see a lot of handwringing over whether there are shadowy Liberals pulling the strings behind the scenes. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/69 "2004-08-06T04:32:38Z")
After Ken Lay donated that money, didn’t he and George Bush almost never met? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/70 "2004-08-06T04:39:53Z")
No, Ken Lay was a supporter of Anne Richardson. They almost didn’t meet, but not quite. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/71 "2004-08-06T04:40:20Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Kerry campaign is working hard to [prevent the Swiftboat vets’ ads.](http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_pdf.html) > > I’m already on record as saying that these guys may be going over the line if they can’t corroborate this stuff, but the letter reprinted at the cite above is slimy, untrue, intimidating tactic from Kerry’s lawyers. Well, now, speaking of [brandishing lawyers at one’s opponent](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/01/kerry.ad/index.html): > [@](#): > > In Tuesday’s “cease and desist” letter, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth called on Kerry’s campaign to stop what it said was the unauthorized use of the images of some of them in a 60-second biographical spot titled “Lifetime.” The ad began running nationwide in early May. > > The U.S. Navy photo in question depicts 20 officers, including Kerry, and was taken January 22, 1969, on the island of An Thoi in Vietnam. The ad shows only a portion of the picture – not all of the men are visible – and is displayed for two seconds. > > But even the men who are not in the ad have a right to demand the picture not be used, said Alvin A. Horne, a Houston attorney who served on a swift boat in Vietnam in 1969-1970. He is giving legal advice to the group. Eleven of the 20 men in the picture oppose their images being used in the campaign ad, he said. > [snip] > > “Suing is a possibility,” said Horne, who would not divulge whether he has any political affiliation. “That’s my business. This is not about me and my politics. I didn’t have an ‘R’ stamped on my dog tags.” > > A Kerry spokesman dismissed the group’s claim, noting the Swift Boat Veterans used an enlarged version of the same photo at a news conference announcing the anti-Kerry group’s formation in early May. > > “Somehow they didn’t call to ask if they could use John Kerry’s image,” Michael Meehan said. “When it was useful for their politics they show a big blowup.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/72 "2004-08-06T04:44:40Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > That’s the best you can do for a conspiracy? > From this, you deduce that he’s a shill for the Bush campaign. Why **Sam** , I suggested no conspiracy. I made no deduction that Perry is a shill for Bush. I satisfied my curosity as to who the guy was. I’ll bet quite a few people were wondering who was behind the ad. Didn’t you want to know? Why are you trying to put words in my mouth that I didn’t say? The administration’s denial of Kenneth Lay was a work of ART, **Simonx** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/73 "2004-08-06T04:52:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The letter claims that the men are lying because they weren’t ‘shipmates’ of Kerry’s - a claim they never made. They didn’t? Then why do all the pundits I’ve read who support/believe the ad say that they were? Or am I somehow misinterpreting them? They may have said that all these men “served with” Kerry, which I guess is different from being shipmates with him. Or perhaps I’m mixing them up with the man who wrote the book on the same subject, or conflating this with the claim that only one of Kerry’s former shipmates actually supports him for President. Hrm. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/74 "2004-08-06T04:57:48Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > They didn’t? Then why do all the pundits I’ve read who support/believe the ad say that they were? > > Or am I somehow misinterpreting them? They may have said that all these men “served with” Kerry, which I guess is different from being shipmates with him. Or perhaps I’m mixing them up with the man who wrote the book on the same subject, or conflating this with the claim that only one of Kerry’s former shipmates actually supports him for President. Hrm. Hey, you’ve got to allow a little leeway for hyperbole. Ike and I served together in the ETO. And while I’m on the subject, he made a couple of real blunders. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/75 "2004-08-06T05:22:37Z")
Well, I had my doubts. But then I found how who was publishing their upcoming bestseller, they were dispeled. Yes, its Regnery House! That font of political wisdom, home ground of such luminaries as R. Emmet Tyrell, Anne Coulter, Oliver North, G. Gordon Liddy…oh! the list of luminaries too numerous to mention! I trust this will silence all this scurrilous talk about partisan motivations! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/76 "2004-08-06T06:20:03Z")
These guys were Swiftboat skippers of Kerry’s, and all of his superior officers. They didn’t serve on the same ship, but they worked together. Swift boats often travelled in groups. The men trained together, went out together, fought together, and debriefed together. They were fully comrades of Kerry’s. They just weren’t assigned to the same boat. But they all knew him well. I finally received the first chapter of the book, and there are more detailed descriptions of the Purple Heart citations and Kerry’s supposed adventure into Cambodia. They cite a lot of on-the-record eyewitness accounts. I’m conflicted over this, because on the one hand the charges are lurid and one wonders why they weren’t brought out 30 years ago when Kerry was testifying in front of Congress. But on the other hand, there are a LOT of people involved in this, including Kerry’s entire chain of command. Some of them are Democrats. I do not believe the Republicans have ‘bought off’ these guys. I think this is what they see: Kerry comes into their unit, hogs a little glory, gets a few medals that are considered to be undeserved, and then goes home early. Once home, he starts accusing these men of war crimes. If he was claiming that he was ordered to partake of atrocities and illegally ordered into Cambodia, and those things didn’t happen, that would explain why his entire chain of command is against him. Then he disowns them, throws his medals away. These guys are furious. Then, a couple of decades later, Kerry re-emerges, but now the political wind has shifted so suddenly he’s a war hero, supremely proud of his performance and mentioning his service every chance he can get. These guys are livid. It’s in this type of heated atmosphere in which claims start to go a little over the top, and people start remembering things as being worse than they are. Kerry may even be the subject of a reinforced myth among them. They’ve told increasingly lurid stories about Kerry since they started hating him over the Vietnam hearings that they’ve come to really remember some of those things that way. Or maybe these guys are telling the truth. For you newly-minted lovers of all things military, do these guys’ mountain of medals at least get them a hearing? 250 sailors willing to put their reputations on the line, knowing they were going to be subject of all kinds of smears? I don’t think this is about partisanship at all. I think this is about a whole bunch of guys who have a blind hatred for John Kerry. He could be a Republican and they’d be going after him just as hard. After all, there are more than a few Democrats in that group. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/77 "2004-08-06T07:39:33Z")
Out of curiousity Sam, could you say how many of them are identified as Democrats and how is this fact presented in the book? * * * On an unrelated note, one Larry Thurlow is quoted [here](http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200407301059.asp), for example, to the effect that there was no combat in the incident following which Kerry got the Bronze Star. In the Pit thread, **elucidator** quoted [this site](http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html) which says that Thurlow got a Bronze Star following that same incident. I couldn’t find any other sites supporting this, and if it’s true, it was just quite literally unbelievably stupid on Thurlow’s part to say what he said, so I’m not quite sure what to believe. So, what’s the deal with that? Is there any way to find out for sure if he did or didn’t get the Bronze Star then? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/78 "2004-08-06T14:00:00Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I don’t think this is about partisanship at all. I think this is about a whole bunch of guys who have a blind hatred for John Kerry. He could be a Republican and they’d be going after him just as hard. After all, there are more than a few Democrats in that group. In my experience, people who allow themselves to be blinded by hatred tend to be more on the partisan side, than cool rational thinkers. Such fiery folk, with their cries of “Nuke Hanoi!” or “Obliterate Baghdad!,” make poor leaders, military or otherwise, and you have to take anything they say, including their trashing of John Kerry, with a planet sized grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/79 "2004-08-06T14:26:07Z")
Someone in the Swiftboat Vets for Truth has overcome their blindness to the extent where they can see that spitting on someone’s silver star might not be such a good idea: > [@](#): > > yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry’s former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star – one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book. [Veteran retracts criticism of Kerry](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/) ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/80 "2004-08-06T14:28:57Z")
**Upon further review re: Cease and desist** The cease and desist letter from the DNC consists of the usual saber rattling of any C&D letter, with and interesting twist. The ad does list Lous Letson as a “Medical Officer - Lietenant Commander”. Letson states > [@](#): > > I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart because I treated him for that injury It’s kinda interesting. I think that is a pretty major sticking point that the swift vets are going to have a tough time with. They’ll have to come up with some paperwork to prove that Letson did in fact treat Kerry. And that would be a medical record. And we all know the status of the Kerry medical records. The swift vets can’t prove that Letson treated Kerry, because that would require a Kerry medical record, and Kerry hasn’t released those. So the lawyers are in the enviable position of forcing the SVs to put up or shut up, when they know that the SVs can’t legally put anything up. Now since the DNC lawyers haven’t, at least from what I’ve heard, sued the bejeebus out of the SVs for libel or slander by releasing the add on the net, there may be some meat to the claims. I’d like to see what the SVs have for records to back up the claims. That claim goes beyond the _opinions stated_ positions of the rest of the ad. As it stands, if I were a local television network lawyer (I am not), I’d certainly want to see this shake out a little before I gave the go ahead. If the Doctor’s claims can’t be backed up, it’s libel, and if I run the ad after being warned of the libel, i’m in hot water. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=5)