# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/781 "2004-08-25T19:06:44Z")
I believe Mr. Thorlow has remarked that the citation was somehow in the possession of his ex-wife, with whom he has has no contact. At least this last claim is entirely credible and understandable. (Ahhh, love! Between the magic moment of first meeting, and the issuance of the restraining order…) [Babs] _Memories…light the coroners of our lives…_ [/repulsive diva I _wish_ were a Pubbie] ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/782 "2004-08-25T19:08:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I propose that, in your honor, we adopt “to **Snake** ” as SDMB slang meaning “to proactively complain about martyred misunderstanding and abuse in advance of anyone actually giving a shit”. Oh shit, I forgot to include ad hominum attacks. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/783 "2004-08-25T19:29:36Z")
Anyone have an idea what the record is for number of pages in a single thread? Have we set a new record? (And the election is still more than 2 months away! Any bets on how long this mess will last?) ---
**Author:** ![NotMrKnowItAll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6bbea6/32.png) [@NotMrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotMrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/784 "2004-08-25T19:37:55Z")
The famous [Guy Stuff](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=18972) thread lasted 23 pages and 1113 posts. ---
**Author:** ![NotMrKnowItAll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6bbea6/32.png) [@NotMrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotMrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/785 "2004-08-25T19:50:07Z")
But at 107 pages and 5338 posts [a](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=158752) looks like the winner. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/786 "2004-08-25T19:55:44Z")
> [@NotMrKnowItAll](#): > > The famous [Guy Stuff](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=18972) thread lasted 23 pages and 1113 posts. Aaah. Good times, good times. And like all such times, if you can actually remember it you _weren’t there, man_! Which is why I remember it so well. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/787 "2004-08-25T19:57:13Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Have we set a new record? To achieve that lofty goal, the thread would need a title like **"What if J.R.R. Tolkinn Had Been a Member of Swift Boat Veterans For Truth?"** ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/788 "2004-08-25T19:58:00Z")
[More on the rebuffing of Cleland](http://cnn.allpolitics.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Lawmakers+to+Bush%3A%A0Condemn+Kerry+attack+ads+-+Aug+25%2C+2004&expire=-1&urlID=11440450&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2004%2FALLPOLITICS%2F08%2F25%2Fcleland.swiftboat%2Findex.html&partnerID=2001). Although Cleland was unsuccessful in getting anyone to deliver the letter to Bush, the Bushies did send some Land Commssioner to take the letter (note, his job was simply to “take” the letter, not to deliver it to Bush) and hand another one to Cleland with some childish remarks from the Bush campaign. > [@](#): > > After Cleland’s statement, Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, also a Vietnam veteran, said he was instructed by a Bush campaign aide to take Cleland’s letter, but the former senator refused to give it to him. > > Patterson also tried to give Cleland a letter addressed to Kerry and signed by a number of pro-Bush Vietnam veterans, including several GOP congressmen. > The letter accuses Kerry of basing his campaign on his Vietnam service but then criticizing Vietnam veterans who support Bush, Patterson said. “You can’t have it both ways,” the letter says. As you can see, this letter, in typical Bushista fashion, is based on a false presentation of the facts. As a matter of _fact_, Kerry is _not_ criticizing veterans who support the Chimp, he is criticizing veterans who _lie about his record._ The rest of the letter employs similar misdirection, prevarication and grandstanding. At no point does the letter address any of the slanders made towards John Kerry’s service record and tries to pretend that Kerry’s anger is all about political disagreements rather than a Rove directed slander campaign. The text of the entire letter can be found right [here.](http://cnn.allpolitics.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Lawmakers+to+Bush%3A%A0Condemn+Kerry+attack+ads+-+Aug+25%2C+2004&expire=-1&urlID=11440450&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2004%2FALLPOLITICS%2F08%2F25%2Fcleland.swiftboat%2Findex.html&partnerID=2001) I hope that Kerry keeps hammering away at this garbage until W is forced to actually make a staement about the slander itself. The letter they tried to give to Cleland was smug, but it was a gutless kind of smug. They’re pretending they’ve addressed an issue that they haven’t addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/789 "2004-08-25T20:33:10Z")
The guy Bush used to protect himself from Cleland **Jerry Patterson** turns out to have [scored $150,000](http://www.talkaboutgovernment.com/group/alt.politics.greens/messages/322900.html) from **Bob Perry**. **Bob Perry** of course, is one of the deep pocket republicans bankrolling Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/790 "2004-08-25T20:33:53Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > To achieve that lofty goal, the thread would need a title like **"What if J.R.R. Tolkinn Had Been a Member of Swift Boat Veterans For Truth?"** Here’s a first shot at it (with sincerest apologies to JRRT): Three Hearts which we attack with lies based on lies, Seven \, [Nine veteran Senators](http://cnn.allpolitics.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Lawmakers+to+Bush%3A%A0Condemn+Kerry+attack+ads+-+Aug+25%2C+2004&expire=-1&urlID=11440450&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2004%2FALLPOLITICS%2F08%2F25%2Fcleland.swiftboat%2Findex.html&partnerID=2001) “Condemn” to Bush advise, One chance to get Kerry back for for his anti-war tone In the state of Texas, where the money lies. One chance to fool them all, One chance to blind them, One chance to tell the “facts” (as we have defined them). In the land of Texas, where the money lies. [Note: Someone said before there were 7 Senators signing the letter to Bush, but CNN says Cleland says 9] ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/791 "2004-08-25T20:58:26Z")
ALL? All American soldiers??? Including me? (I really don’t remember any except going into Laos.) Including himself? What war crimes did he admit to? Must be more conservative lies. See it [HERE in the Wall(eyed) Street(walkers) Journal](http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005519) - oops, I didn;'t MEAN to make an ad-hominem attack, but I guess it’s OK, they’re not dopers… emphasis mine: > [@](#): > > He told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in the spring of 1971 that \*\*\*all American soldiers \* \*\* had committed war crimes as a matter of official policy. “Crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command” were among his incendiary words. > > Mr. Kerry has never offered proof of those charges, yet he has never retracted them either. At his recent coronation in Boston he managed the oxymoronic feat of celebrating both his own war-fighting valor and his antiwar activities when he returned home. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/792 "2004-08-25T21:16:54Z")
Very droll. Pretending to be so ill-informed as to actually believe that the _Wall Street Journal_ editorial page is a bastion of non-partisan, utterly objective reporting of fact. I had no idea that you had such a gift for post-modernist irony! ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/793 "2004-08-25T21:48:35Z")
I’m curious. I’m on the pro-Kerry/anti-Swifties side of things, and there seems to me to be parallels between this situation and the Abu-Ghraib prison scandal. I look at Kerry testifying before congress in 1971 that the war was immoral, and that soldiers were asked and ordered to commit war crimes - soldiers may or may not have knowingly committed war crimes, but I see the brunt of responsibility with the commanders-in-chief, joint-chiefs-of-staff, and military higher-ups. I see Abu-Ghraib and personally hold accountable W, Rumsfeld, and the top military echelon much more than the rank-and-file soldiers who were actually humiliating and torturing the prisoners. Do the people on the other side of the fence, who believe Kerry was condemning the soldiers and that you can’t “have it both ways,” believe the whistle-blowing soldiers in Abu Ghraib are unpatriotic? Or who do they hold accountable? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/794 "2004-08-25T21:54:32Z")
> [@MaleBox](#): > > Do the people on the other side of the fence, who believe Kerry was condemning the soldiers and that you can’t “have it both ways,” believe the whistle-blowing soldiers in Abu Ghraib are unpatriotic? Or who do they hold accountable? Must be. After all, they’re giving _Aid And Comfort To The Enemy_, aren’t they? I wonder how long until the man who burned a Marine van (sorry, link requires registration) is sent to Gitmo. Then again, I think they have something legit to charge him with, so maybe they won’t need to do with that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/795 "2004-08-25T23:54:29Z")
As regards Mr. Thurlow’s alibi: he claims that he did not know that his Bronze Star was awarded for valor _under fire_ (apparently, he thinks the award is commonly given for extraordinary efforts as a life guard and water safety instructor). Joe Conason points out that if this were so, he must have failed to notice that his medal is embossed with a “V”, which is _specificly_ appended to the medal for valor _under enemy fire_. Mr. Thurlow therefore has some extraordinary and eccentric form of cognitive dissonance, or he is a lying sack. (Your correspondent does not claim any vast expertise regarding military awards and commendations. I accept that this is probably true because Mr. Conason is pretty reliable. If contradictory information is available, hokey-dokey.) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/796 "2004-08-25T23:57:00Z")
> [@MaleBox](#): > > I’m curious. > … > > Do the people on the other side of the fence, who believe Kerry was condemning the soldiers and that you can’t “have it both ways,” believe the whistle-blowing soldiers in Abu Ghraib are unpatriotic? Or who do they hold accountable? I think whistle-blowing is absolutely fine and patriotic thing to do. But I’m curious too. Is Kerry a whistle-blower or self-aggrandizing schmuck, caught spinning tall tales for political and personal advantage? Kerry needs to learn a lesson that will remain forever seared - seared! - in him and the time is _now_, especially if he is to become a POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/797 "2004-08-26T00:16:09Z")
What lesson would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/798 "2004-08-26T01:12:27Z")
**Elucidator** , may I place your definition of **to snake** in my sig with appropriate homage to the originator (though not specifically the origin)? “Snaking” is right up there with “See What You Made Me Do” in my list of posting irritants. It has needed a name. O’Neil on his own experiences in Cambodia: 1. “I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border,” – June 16, 1971 to Presiden Nixon 2. “Our boats didn’t go north of, only slightly north of Sedek,” which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border. – August 22, 2004, in an interview on ABC’s _This Week_ 3. “I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia,” O’Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon – interview with Associated Press, August 25, 2004 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/799 "2004-08-26T01:26:42Z")
Zoe: I take a collectivist approach to SDMB drollerys. You can’t steal what is freely given. If one of my lines will get you a laugh, laid, or all lickered up, go for it. As a general rule, Wodehouse, I borrow, Vonnegut, I steal, Twain, I plunder. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/800 "2004-08-26T01:29:12Z")
How about this? Any additions? Corrections? **snake** – _vb_ (21c) : SDMB slang meaning _to proactively complain about martyred misunderstanding and abuse in advance of anyone actually giving a shit._ (origin: use by **elucidator** , 8/25/2004 (Just saving the _Oxford_ people a little trouble) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=41)