# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/821 "2004-08-26T11:23:51Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Maybe we should leave whether or not it was a combat tour to an expert like, say, the US Navy. I disagree. I gave my opinion and that’s how I feel. The Navy might influence that opinion but ultimately it is mine to make. That is the meaning of “the court of public opinion”. People judge based on their feelings, not technical terms. Having to parse out what the definition of “is” is will not sway someone’s opinion. That is the problem with this debates like this. People are discussing how many bullet holes it takes in a boat to equal a hail of bullets. Leaving a relatively safe Frigate for a swift boat is the admiral part of his career. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/822 "2004-08-26T11:37:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That is the problem with this debates like this. People are discussing how many bullet holes it takes in a boat to equal a hail of bullets. Actually, liars right here said that there were no bullet holes, ergo no enemy fire. When it turned out that there were bullet holes, the spinning started. > [@](#): > > Leaving a relatively safe Frigate for a swift boat is the admiral part of his career. So, your argument is that Kerry’s service was not admirable until he moved from the seas to the waterways? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/823 "2004-08-26T11:47:45Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > So you would consign to second class veteran status all the Viet Nam vets who served on aircraft carriers, escorts and the like? Good Lord no. You’re missing the point. The only person who is starting to get it is New Iskander. And you’d be hard pressed to make a term like “second class veteran” fly very far in any circle. This debate is making people try to explain details as if it was a court case. Well maybe it is in a way but the closest case I can think of is the Simpson’s trial. This is trial by court-of-opinion, not by jury. I have to believe that Senator Kerry understands it but is too far along to dump his campaign manager. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/824 "2004-08-26T11:58:04Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Actually, liars right here said that there were no bullet holes, ergo no enemy fire. When it turned out that there were bullet holes, the spinning started. > > So, your argument is that Kerry’s service was not admirable until he moved from the seas to the waterways? It was not an argument. Volunteering for Swift Boat duty was the most admirable part of his career, one does not negate the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/825 "2004-08-26T12:04:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was not an argument. Volunteering for Swift Boat duty was the most admirable part of his career, one does not negate the other. Oh, I’m sorry, but when you said it was “_the_ admiral” part, rather than saying “the most admiral,” I took that to be, you know, exclusive of all the other parts of his career (as the words you actually used would mean). Clearly just a miscommunication, but of course my follow up would have been to ask about whether being on a frigate off of Viet Nam is more admirable than say, being in Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/826 "2004-08-26T12:13:04Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And his opponent is a guy who led the nation into a war with Iraq over nonexistent WMDs, has failed to capture the leader behind the worst terrorist attack on American soil, and spent _his_ formative Vietnam-era years guarding the skies of Texas between beer runs. Or have you forgotten that? > > \*\* Well, thanks for insulting my friends in the National Guard (also known as voters). You also went on to insult all the people actively looking for OBL and his minions as if nothing has been accomplished since 9/11.\*\* > > At least Kerry had the _cojones_ to voluntarily **show up** in Vietnam \*\*You began your paragraph with "At least Kerry… Is that a Freudian slip? Do you understand Kerry’s predicament now? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/827 "2004-08-26T13:43:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Yes, it’s like a line from one old horror movie, “The more you struggle, Mortimer, the more you strangle yourself”. > > All decent people know that these charges against Kerry need to be debated _right now_. Indeed, there was a better time to do it. Democratic primaries were the perfect time for Democrats to debate these issues with Kerry and put them to rest one way or another. Why didn’t they do it? Uh, New Iskander, have you seen the latest poll numbers? You may want to have a look. [http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/8/19/193723/929](http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/8/19/193723/929) Kerry 48% Bush 41% Bush’s approval rating? 39%. Funny, what are Johnathan and Dr. Einstein doing writhing on the floor? Mortimer, get back in that chair, now! We want to keep talking about how helpless you are. What “decent” people are finding out, New Iskander, is that the Shifties are a bunch of liars and that John Kerry is every inch the war hero he’s been cracked up to be. The poll numbers show it. “Decent” people are now realizing that this whole thing was a smear campaign luanched by the Bushies. And guess what? It’s backfiring. People are seeing just what a bunch of loathsome sleazeballs these guys are and the light of that realization is reflecting directly back on President Jesus McChimp. ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/828 "2004-08-26T13:47:58Z")
Where it belongs. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/829 "2004-08-26T14:18:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Mr. Thurlow, precisely what would be Kerry’s motivation in making up the story? And why would his entire crew back him up on it? While we’ve not heard yet, I’m gonna take a header and say that it was because Kerry knew that he would marry someone disgustingly wealthy who would be able to handsomely recompense those who would back Kerry’s version of events. Sorta like he knew that he wold be running for president 35+ years in the future. Helluva prognosticator, that Kerry. > [@Magiver](#): > > After all the hand wringing and foot stomping you are still left with a candidate who based his entire campaign on his brief tour of Vietnam. No, he didn’t. > [@](#): > > How many people were tortured over this and how many MIA’s did he create by his desire to enter into politics. We’ll never know. That’s the problem with MIA’s. They just disappear. Neat trick, that. Laying torture victims and MIAs at Kerry’s feet. Because, after all, he was certainly the only person who came back from Vietnam and claimed that soldiers were routinely breaking the laws of war. Everyone else was fulla stories about ice cream socials and beer runs. > [@](#): > > He could easily have expressed his anti-war sentiment in other ways. He could have presented the case for isolationism or even pacifism. Instead, he presented hearsay testimony in a public forum. Because so many badly planned wars have ended through isolationism and/or pacifism. And was the testimony he presented wrong? > [@](#): > > Although he has admitted his own failure do the right thing in a time of war, he is the first in line to use the Abu Ghraib prison scandal for his own political benefit. Shit the bed, man! **Every** body is using Abu Ghraib that can. It was a huge clusterfuck which we’ve still not seen the end of. (R)s are doing their damnedest to downplay it. Do you think that sweeping it under the rug is the proper response? > [@](#): > > And again, he has put soldiers at risk with his political rhetoric. Yup, just Kerry. That evil, evil bastard. Why, oh why, does he hate America so? > [@](#): > > It’s not hard to understand the hatred the Swiftboat Vets hold for him as well as his fear it will spread to other Vets. Except that they’re angry at him because of his testimony. And they’re trying to make it appear that they’re upset with him because of his service. And they’re too fucking cowardly to condemn him for what is really sticking in their craws. > [@](#): > > The more he protests, the worse it will get. > > And that’s why this thread is now on page 17 and moving at a rate of 2 pages a day. Nah, this thread is on pg 17 because everyone who bashed the Swifties is in here whooping it up and having a party. The apologists have tucked tail and run. Just like we expected them to. > [@](#): > > When people learn that the home movies (in the commercials) were staged it diminishes his image. You’ve been spanked for this already, but I have to wonder at someone who has slogged through this entire thread and missed the debunking of your claim. > [@](#): > > The commercials take on a Dukakis like quality. Huh? Are you saying that the commercials make Kerry appear to be a politician? Because he is, y’know. > [@](#): > > It’s the little things that people pick up on. Like the unceasing lies from the Swifties. Man, **that** sticks out like a turd in a punchbowl! > [@Razorsharp](#): > > The “Elvis” comment was for the benefit of any Elvis fans of the liberal persuasion that just may happen to be lurking around this thread. See there. You’ve lived up to the least of my expectations. Congratulations! Of course, my expectations are pretty notoriously low, so it’s really more of a wash. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/830 "2004-08-26T14:29:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Good Lord no. You’re missing the point. The only person who is starting to get it is New Iskander. And you’d be hard pressed to make a term like “second class veteran” fly very far in any circle. > > This debate is making people try to explain details as if it was a court case. Well maybe it is in a way but the closest case I can think of is the Simpson’s trial. This is trial by court-of-opinion, not by jury. > > I have to believe that Senator Kerry understands it but is too far along to dump his campaign manager. Well, your’e the one who dismissed reference to Kerry’s first tour with what looked like a sneering, “I would not consider that a combat tour.” Maybe I am missing the point of that comment. So would you explain it to me? ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/831 "2004-08-26T14:36:52Z")
Title: Bush Overstated His Military Record [http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1704](http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1704) Any of you Swiftie fans want to condem Bush for being a weird, lying exaggerator or anything for claiming to have been in the Air Force for 602 days when he wasn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/832 "2004-08-26T14:47:49Z")
Damn, **Braintree** , nice find. Getting the date wrong about when you were shot at in Cambodia kind of pales in comparison to repeatedly lying about (and overtly defending) which branch of the military you were in. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/833 "2004-08-26T15:02:22Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Damn, **Braintree** , nice find. Getting the date wrong about when you were shot at in Cambodia kind of pales in comparison to repeatedly lying about (and overtly defending) which branch of the military you were in. Sheesh. [sarcasm] No it doesn’t pale by comparison! Viet Nam/Cambodia were important! The record speaks for itself; nobody seemed to care if Bush showed up so it must not have been important, right?!! It’s much more important whether someone was in Cambodia over Christmas or whether it was January, or February!!! And besides that, the cite depends upon military records which everyone knows, based on personal testimony in this thread, that military records are unreliable as hell!!![/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/834 "2004-08-26T15:26:38Z")
[http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-318270.php](http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-318270.php) Have we covered this one yet? When the lies are thick upon the ground, one gets confused. And this is just an ordinary, garden-variety lie, doesn’t measure up to some of the weapons-grade crapola the Swifties are hauling in on dump trucks. But just to be sure… From that notoriously lefty Dem propaganda rag, the _Navy Times_… **Two vets say Swift Boat group misrepresents them** > [@](#): > > Two of John Kerry’s fellow swift boat commanders in Vietnam said Monday that they have been misrepresented by a group of veterans and supporters of President Bush who have attacked Kerry’s war record. The men say they _have tried unsuccessfully_ for two weeks to get the group to change its Web site to reflect their support for Kerry… (emphasis added with a weary shrug, “…so what else is new?..”) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/835 "2004-08-26T15:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > emphasis added with a weary shrug, “…so what else is new?..”) _When **elucidator** saw the breadth of the horseshit, he wept, for there were no more hamsters to spin the little wheels._ I just wanted to highlight something else from **elucidator’s** link: > [@](#): > > The group’s claim that Kerry made up reports of enemy fire during a March 1969 mission when Kerry pulled a Green Beret from a river and won the Bronze Star doesn’t make sense to McCann and Baker. > > “The other officers would have had the opportunity to say at the debriefing, ‘No, John, we weren’t under fire,’ “ Baker said. > > Members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have said they were unaware until years later that Kerry had written about the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/836 "2004-08-26T16:16:37Z")
Robert E. Lambert doesn’t plan to vote for John Kerry. But the Eagle Point man challenges claims by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that there was no enemy fire aimed at the five swift boats, including the one commanded by Kerry, on March 13, 1969 […] Lambert, now 64, was a crew member on swift boat PCF-51 that day […] commanded by Navy Lt. Larry Thurlow […] “He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time,” Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. “Well, I sure was under the impression we were.” Lambert’s Bronze Star medal citation for the incident praises his courage under fire in the aftermath of a mine explosion that rocked another swift boat on that day 35 years ago. “Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire,” he said. […] Nor does he have much time for the debate over who wrote the medal citations. Thurlow says his citation for a Bronze Star, which states the boats were being fired upon, was based on an initial report written by Kerry. Lambert doesn’t know who wrote the documents. “They took what everybody said after they got in, piled it altogether and shipped it off and somebody wrote that, either at the division level, squadron level or commander of naval forces, Vietnam level,” Lambert said. "They decided what kind of medal was going to be put on it.[…]” [http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm](http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm) I apologize. I previously characterized Mr. Lambert as one of the Shifties himself. This was, apparently, quite inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/837 "2004-08-26T16:48:07Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Shayna** , I hope that you post more often! Well done! Wow, thank you, **Zoe**. That means a lot, coming from you, as you are one of the posters around here I have a great deal of respect for. I notice that the person I was actually addressing in my post hasn’t bothered to respond and seems to have slunk away from this thread entirely. So much for keeping an open mind, I guess. > [@braintree](#): > > …have you seen the latest poll numbers? You may want to have a look. [My Daily Dose](http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/8/19/193723/929) > > Kerry 48% > Bush 41% > > Bush’s approval rating? 39%. And speaking of poll numbers, I came across an fascinating internal memo the other day, by GOP polling firm Fabrizio McLaughlin & Associates, regarding a poll done in early July. Addressing the “undecided” voters in serveral swing states, what they found was > [@](#): > > Clearly, if these undecided voters were leaning any harder against the door of the Kerry camp, they would crash right through it. So, what did they conclude that the Bush campaign needed to do in order to sway these voters to their side? > [@](#): > > (all emphasis mine) > > The Bush campaign needs to focus on two goals with these crucial voters – **improve their perceptions about the jobs and economy AND more sharply and aggressively define John Kerry**. Any advertising that does not either sharply define Kerry or get the truth out about the growing economy appears to be a waste of resources in this environment, an environment in which the President’s image is polarized and generally fixed. > > If the Bush team can improve these voters’ perceptions of the jobs and the economy, it would improve the President’s job approval and image ratings. **Couple that improvement with a worsening in their view of Kerry and the President can greatly improve his chances of capturing these voters**. > > Short of accomplishing these two goals or some other significant event, these voters appear poised to break heavily AGAINST President Bush in John Kerry’s favor which would hand Kerry a lion’s share of these states. The Republicans are shaking in their boots and they know the ONLY way they can win is to deceive people about the economy and defame John Kerry (“agressively define” – ha ha!). See the memo and all their data here: [Latest Battleground State Survey Results –The “Unfriendly” Undecideds](http://www.fabmac.com/FMA-2004-07-08-Undecideds.pdf) (Warning: .pdf file) And yet another memo reveals even more concern… [Closing Bush’s Job “Approval Gap” – the Key to Unlocking an 8 Point Bush Lead](http://www.fabmac.com/FMA-2004-07-14-Approval-Gap.pdf) (Another .pdf file). > [@](#): > > One of the more troubling findings from our recently completed survey of 1000 likely voters in the 19 battleground states is the sizeable “gap” that exists between President Bush’s job approval score and his vote. > > \ > > In a close election, this “approval gap” is crucial to the President. However at present this 8.6% of the vote isn’t just sitting on the sidelines, they appear to be choosing up sides AGAINST the President DESPITE approving of his job. > > \ > > (Emphasis theirs) **The key to closing this “approval gap” lays in redefining John Kerry with these voters.** > > ������ Kerry has virtually NO negatives with “approval gap” voters as only 15.1% view him unfavorably as compared to 30.9% who view him unfavorably among undecideds and 38% overall. The key to closing this “approval gap” lays in redefining John Kerry with these voters. Too bad for them that their strategy backfired. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/838 "2004-08-26T17:00:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His first tour was on an offshore Frigate. I would not consider that a combat tour. Hindsight 20/20? Put it in the context of the time Magiver. The Navy wasn’t such a safe bet. They weren’t that far removed from the Maddox getting shot at, who knows if they knew the truth about the Turner Joy. They expected the waters to be mined as was the case in Korea, and they never knew if China was going to step in and make things real interesting. So give the Navy and the Naval vets some credit for answering the call. It was only after Kerry served a year and saw that it was turning out to be a relative leisure cruise that he sought out the other duty. But there was never any guarantee that the Navy was a safe haven. Bush apologists talk about how dangerous it was to fly for the T.A.N.G., but at the time that Bush was using his family connections to avoid Viet Nam, young men volunteering for the Navy honestly felt they were going to see action. Don’t discount their bravery. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/839 "2004-08-26T17:10:12Z")
Well, Lambert might have fallen into the water, which would make his recollection worth far less. After all, evidently the US armed forces are more likely to not know what in hell is going on if they get wet. Who knew? Water is the secret weapon that makes US forces become all unhinged. And because it needs to be posted again: > [@](#): > > “He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time,” Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. “Well, I sure was under the impression we were.” > Lambert’s Bronze Star medal citation for the incident praises his courage under fire in the aftermath of a mine explosion that rocked another swift boat on that day 35 years ago. > > “Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire,” he said. Well, that’s one less Swiftie. Anybody wanna get a pool together on who’ll be next? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/840 "2004-08-26T17:12:27Z")
Whatever happened to **Sam**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=43)