# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/861 "2004-08-27T00:10:32Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > …Then would you mind using your excellent powers of persuasion to get me back in good with **elucidator**? You see, he’s creative and can get away with a lot of things that retired English teachers can’t. I think he misunderstood something I said about a split infinitive and he said something thrilling but vile about my horse and me. My horse can’t quit grinning, but I’ve been a little glum ever since. I suppose it isn’t so much that the horse is grinning, but what the horse is grinning _about_. Let us draw a veil of discretion over that, and let the matter lie. You need have no concern about my graces, good, bad, or otherwise. I never hold a grudge. This is more a matter of short-term memory issues than refined character, but the end result is the same. Ancient joke omitted, punch line only. “Sure, sure, sheep talk. Everybody knows sheep can talk. But they lie!” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/862 "2004-08-27T00:16:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As to why did Kerry “get a pass from Democrats”? Boy, thats a tough one. I’m gonna guess because they want to win? Just a wild stab, mind you. The Pubbies _wanted_ to run against Dean. And as I’ve said, I believe, but cannot prove, that Pubbie money went into the Dean campaign precisely for that reason. You forgot to add that ‘Pubbies’ also made Al Gore to endorse Dean. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/863 "2004-08-27T02:29:05Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You forgot to add that ‘Pubbies’ also made Al Gore to endorse Dean. I’m sorry, what? No, seriously, what in hell are you attempting (oh so vainly) to say here? Because it looks to me as if you’ve made some weird, half-assed attempt at being snarky, and failed. Proving once again that you should leave any smart-assedness to the pros. Or learn to express your thoughts in a more or less cogent manner. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/864 "2004-08-27T03:05:29Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You forgot to add that ‘Pubbies’ also made Al Gore to endorse Dean. Al Gore also chose Lieberman as his running mate. If that doesn’t tell you the man’s not perfect, I’m not sure what would. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/865 "2004-08-27T04:29:40Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Al Gore also chose Lieberman as his running mate. If that doesn’t tell you the man’s not perfect, I’m not sure what would. You don’t have to tell me that Al is not a perfect man; I know that full well, believe you me. However, by the time this election is over _you_ are going to pine for Al big time, and Joe too. Come to think of it, Gephardt/Lieberman would really make Bush/Cheney sweat. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/866 "2004-08-27T04:57:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Dr. Dean, for one, was complaining many times on how Kerry uses his Viet Nam record against other Democrat opponents at every opportunity and almost exclusively. I believe other Democratic runners were also complaining. Why did Kerry get a pass on that from Democrats? Just a wild guess, but maybe the Democrats were revolted at the thought of trying to win an election by smearing the military service of a genuine war hero? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/867 "2004-08-27T05:38:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well your psychic abilities are off somewhat… Nope. > **[THE 2004 CAMPAIGN: THE PRESIDENT; BUSH DISMISSES IDEA THAT KERRY LIED ON...](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/27/us/the-2004-campaign-the-president-bush-dismisses-idea-that-kerry-lied-on-vietnam.html)** > > Pres Bush says he does not believe Sen John Kerry lied about his war record, but he refuses to denounce television commercial paid for by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that alleges Kerry came by his war medals dishonestly, interview; Bush portrays... " President Bush said on Thursday that he did not believe Senator John Kerry lied about his war record, but he declined to condemn the television commercial paid for by a veterans group alleging that Mr. Kerry came by his war medals dishonestly…" But for real amusement… "…“I understand how Senator Kerry feels - I’ve been attacked by 527’s too,’’ he said…” _Pobrecito!_ But the height of drollery is yet to come! "…But he insisted that the 17-month-long insurgency that has upended the administration’s plans for the country was the unintended by-product of a “swift victory’’ against Saddam Hussein’s military…” Got that? Not poor planning, not ham-fisted stupidity, or not having the merest fucking clue… Its because we did _too_ good a job defeating Hussein! (If you have read this far, and are willing to believe a word this man says, ever again, as long as you live, please tell me why. I’ll admit it, its really morbid curiousity, but I’m dying to know…) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/868 "2004-08-27T10:04:28Z")
**Shayna** , many threads and newspaper articles have pointed out the inflated language of Navy officer fitness reports. I could reprint the comment section of my Navy evaluations here, and I’m sure you’d be ready to elect me Emperor, by these standards. This is not to take anything away from John Kerry, as I have great respect for his heroism under fire. But you probably don’t realize that a couple of those fitreps you reprinted were mediocre ones. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/869 "2004-08-27T10:17:53Z")
I also have to ask, **Shayna** , what brings you to vote you to vote for Kerry today after voting for Dole in 1996 and Bush I in 1992. These war heroes are, after all, very different regarding their approach to the issues. I am correct in assuming you voted for the war heroes in those particular elections, aren’t I? Considering the value you apparantly place in military service. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/870 "2004-08-27T10:38:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > President Bush has called upon John McCain to bury all the 527 groups which is consistent with his original position against the Swiftboat Vets (shut them all down). In case the disgusting hypocricy hasn’t yet registered for you, Bush’s “original position” in no way resembled a ban on issue ads. To that point, I draw the interested reader’s attention to [Bush’s March 15, 2001 formal position statement on campaign finance reform](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/03/20010315-7.html), which clearly states that Dear Leader strongly supports issue ads and the organizations that produce them: [quote] President Bush believes democracy is first and foremost about the rights of individuals to express their views. He supports strengthening the role of individuals in the political process by: 1) updating the limits established more than two decades ago on individual giving to candidates and national parties; and 2) **protecting the rights of citizen groups to engage in issue advocacy**. [quote] ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/871 "2004-08-27T10:44:42Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > In case the disgusting hypocricy hasn’t yet registered for you, Bush’s “original position” in no way resembled a ban on issue ads. But his current one doesn’t either. ? How is that hypocrasy? ? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/872 "2004-08-27T10:53:23Z")
The hell it doesn’t. Bush’s position–adopted only when called upon to denounce the lies of his “independent” hatched men, which he couldn’t bring himself to do because he’s a disgusting piece of shit who likes it when his boys play dirty for him–is that 527s (you know, the groups that produce independent issue ads) are all the same and should all be banned. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/873 "2004-08-27T10:57:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I propose that, in your honor, we adopt “to **Snake** ” as SDMB slang meaning “to proactively complain about martyred misunderstanding and abuse in advance of anyone actually giving a shit”. **Moderator’s Note:** Looks like I missed this one the first time around. **Elucidator** , cool it with the _ad hominem_ attacks in Great Debates, got it? **Zoe** , as long as your signature is the following: > [@](#): > > **snake** – _vb_ (21c) : SDMB slang meaning to complain in a proactive manner about martyred misunderstanding and abuse in advance of anyone actually giving a shit. (origin: use by **elucidator** , 8/25/2004) then every single post you have ever made where you checked the “Show your signature” box includes an _ad hominem_ attack on another poster, no matter what forum you’re in. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/874 "2004-08-27T11:06:35Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I also have to ask, **Shayna** , what brings you to vote you to vote for Kerry today after voting for Dole in 1996 and Bush I in 1992. These war heroes are, after all, very different regarding their approach to the issues. > > I am correct in assuming you voted for the war heroes in those particular elections, aren’t I? Considering the value you apparantly place in military service. Didn’t **Brutus** drag this particular dog out earlier in this very thread? I know we saw it sometime in the past month. Anyway, faulty logic from a conservative? Who’da thunk it. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/875 "2004-08-27T11:15:11Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Bush’s position–[…]–is that 527s […] are all the same and should all be banned. Really? I thought he simply said he is against some of their tactics, and is looking into legal actions against some of them. Perhaps I have misread? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/876 "2004-08-27T11:17:15Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** **Elucidator** , cool it with the _ad hominem_ attacks in Great Debates, got it? Point taken, albeit grudgingly. I’ll try to be good. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/877 "2004-08-27T11:21:46Z")
'Fraid so. > [@](#): > > The president repeated his earlier calls for all of those so-called 527 independent attack ads – tens of millions of dollars worth put out by Democrats, Republicans and Independents – to be stopped. > > Here’s what he then said when pressed if that included the attack ad put out by Kerry’s swift boat critics: > > Bush: “All of them.” > > Reporter: “Does than mean…” > > Bush: “That means that ad, every other ad.” [http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/23/swift.boat/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/23/swift.boat/index.html) > [@](#): > > Tuesday on CNN, Bush-Cheney Deputy Communications Director Jennifer Millerwise was pressed by Kerry campaign Senior Adviser Chad Clanton on that: > > Clanton: “Why is it difficult?” > > Millerwise: “He condemned, not only yesterday, but he’s condemned all 527 activity. Let’s be honest Chad. Let’s be honest Chad.” [http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/24/fear.smear/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/24/fear.smear/index.html) > [@](#): > > Speaking to reporters at his Texas ranch, Bush said he has repeatedly condemned 527 ads. These groups are named for the federal provision that makes such organizations tax exempt and allows them to accept unlimited donations. > > One reporter cited the swift boat ads and asked, “When you say that you want to stop all --” “All of them,” Bush responded. “That means that ad, every other ad. Absolutely. I don’t think we ought to have 527s.” > > White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Bush’s use of the words “that ad” did not indicate a repositioning on the issue. He said Bush was repeating his previous calls for an end to 527 ads. > > The president also reissued his call for Kerry to echo his statement about such ads. > > “I hope my opponent joins me in condemning these activities of the 527 – I think they’re bad for the system,” Bush said. [http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/bush.kerry/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/bush.kerry/index.html) Want any more? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/878 "2004-08-27T11:25:01Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Want any more? Yes, because it seems to me he is talking about all of the attack ads by the 527s. Can you find me a quote in which Bush (or his aides) says that he wants to ban all advertising by any 527 anywhere? Not just the attack ads, and not the parphrasing of some reporter? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/879 "2004-08-27T11:34:40Z")
Although it does seem that he has changed his position on 527s. [This is from May.](http://georgebush.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=2751) Apperently he understood the law to be that 527 were subject to some form of campaign financing regulations if they spent more than $1,000 trying to elect specific federal candidates. They are not, apparently. It seems to me that Bush is talking about making the 527 play by the same rules as PACs. That is closing a loophole in the current campaign financing laws. I can’t seem to locate anything which proves that he wants to ban them anymore than I can find anything suggesting he wants to ban the Democratic party. Your help is most appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/880 "2004-08-27T11:38:44Z")
I said a flip-flop to the flippity flippity flop and you don’t stop … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=45)