# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/901 "2004-08-27T18:33:10Z")
New York Post January 31, 2000 > [@](#): > > Other Gore allies – one wearing the radio earpiece that’s a mark of campaign aides – shouted, “Quitter! Quitter!” at Kerrey, a Congressional Medal of Honor winner who lost part of a leg in Vietnam and recently said he’ll retire from the Senate. > … > > Asked how he felt about seeing Gore supporters heckle members of Congress, Gore campaign spokesman Chris Lehane replied: “First Amendment. They have the right to say what they want.” Why did John Kerry get a pass from Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/902 "2004-08-27T18:46:14Z")
Kerry (the one with only one _e_) _isn’t_ quitting the Senate. What is he getting a pass for? > [@magiver](#): > > It was the hearsay testimony against his fellow soldiers that I’m calling him on. No, he was quoting what they’d told him, and those stories have, sadly, all been confirmed. There’s room to discuss how prevalent they were, but you do need to read and understand Kerry’s testimony first before you accuse him of “aiding the enemy”. I’m glad you’re looking forward to comparing his Vietnam record to Bush’s, though. Let us know how it turns out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/903 "2004-08-27T18:47:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > President Bush believes democracy is first and foremost about the rights of individuals to express their views. > [@](#): > > Saying “there ought to be limits to freedom,” Gov. George W. Bush has filed a legal complaint against the owners of a Web site that lampoons his White House bid. > The designer of the unofficial Bush site described it on Friday as a parody and said the governor is trying to limit what is written about him on the Internet. > But Mr. Bush, a front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination, had harsh words Friday for the site ([www.gwbush.com](http://www.gwbush.com)), which offers mock interviews and policy initiatives on drugs and crime. > “There’s a lot of garbage in politics, and, obviously, this is a garbage man,” said Mr. Bush. [Bush Calls fo Limits to Freedom05/22/99](http://orgs.bloomu.edu/policom/bushlite.net/bushlite.net/limits.html) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/904 "2004-08-27T19:46:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Kerry (the one with only one _e_) _isn’t_ quitting the Senate. What is he getting a pass for? John Kerry got a pass during Democratic primaries. His abuse of his Viet Nam service record was not challenged. If it was, Kerry would have to explain his exaggerations much earlier. As a result, Democrats would either have a different candidate or clean, humble and eager Kerry. Swift veterans accusations would be put to rest much earlier. Instead, Democrats backed-off against Kerry frontal assault and presented the nation with arrogant and tainted SOB as a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/905 "2004-08-27T19:46:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Kerry (the one with only one _e_) _isn’t_ quitting the Senate. What is he getting a pass for? > > No, he was quoting what they’d told him, and those stories have, sadly, all been confirmed. There’s room to discuss how prevalent they were, but you do need to read and understand Kerry’s testimony first before you accuse him of “aiding the enemy”. > > \*\* Repeating what someone told you in testimony is the definition of the word “hearsay”. Regardless of the frequency of the events, his actions aided the enemy. That is not debateable. His testimony could have been held behind closed doors. It was a purely political stunt on his part.\*\* > I’m glad you’re looking forward to comparing his Vietnam record to Bush’s, though. Let us know how it turns out for you. \*\*OK, since were talking about Presidential candidates: If President Bush was in charge of the Vietnam War the ground battles would have been over in a month with elections following a year later. There wouldn’t be any hand wringing finger-in-the-wind, UN waffling. He could have waited for hell to freeze (or a UN solution) but he didn’t. \*\* \>\>insert elucidator here \<\< ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/906 "2004-08-27T19:53:58Z")
> [@Macgiver](#): > > …His treasonous behavior after his service was not his objection to the war (a right of free speech that I support). It was the hearsay testimony against his fellow soldiers that I’m calling him on… Kerry told the truth. In my America, telling the truth is _never_ treason, as we are dedicated to a higher set of principles than simple and mindless nationalism. “My country right or wrong” is the credo of one prepared to accept being wrong as normal, to shrug off the deaths of innocents as being of minor consequence. There was no aid and comfort, for the simple reason that everyone else already knew to what depths we had sunk. It wasn’t news to the Vietnamese, on that point you can be entirely assured. I would that my President tell the truth, I will prefer the candidate who has shown he is willing to speak the truth, however unpleasant and unwelcome the news may be. In the words of another famous traitor, “If this be treason, make the most of it!” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/907 "2004-08-27T20:06:46Z")
**NI** , what “abuse of his Vietnam service record” do you mean? His using it to tell the truth to those still in denial and still getting good people killed uselessly? That’s the highest form of _patriotism_, fella. Or do you mean his 1971 self-assessment of his own role in killing civilians to be an “atrocity”, a word he’s since retracted unnecessarily? > [@magiver](#): > > If President Bush was in charge of the Vietnam War the ground battles would have been over in a month with elections following a year later. Just like the ground battles are over in Iraq? Vietnam would have been on the path to being a stable, free democracy just like Iraq is? Gawdamighty. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/908 "2004-08-27T20:08:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His treasonous behavior after his service was not his objection to the war (a right of free speech that I support). Not only that, it wasn’t even treasonous. > [@](#): > > It was the hearsay testimony against his fellow soldiers that I’m calling him on. he gave aid to the enemy in time of war. IMO he did this knowing the consequences. He may even have extended the war (indirectly) by politicizing it. Yup. There was Kerry, just repeating what he had been told. Every statement that he gave, I rush to add, has since been proven correct. So your beef isn’t with Kerry, it’s with everyone who acted like an ass and those who condoned their behavior. After all, if they hadn’t broken and pissed all over the Geneva Convention, Kerry would have had nothing to testify to. > [@](#): > > We had the capacity to win the war but it was fought behind closed doors. I’m not going to debate that possibility because of the amount of research it would take but the premise is valid enough for consideration. So if only the Pentagon had been given it’s head, the US would have won? You realize that there’s precious little to back up your assertion, but refuse to debate it. My, how intellectually dishonest of you. > [@](#): > > It’s interesting that Kerry once told a reporter that he would never use his camera footage for political purposes (Bill Kelly-NY Times). Yeah! Damn him for flip-flopping anyway! Treasonous bastard! > [@](#): > > If he had listened to his own gut feeling he would be not be dealing with this now. Horsehit, sparky. Bush _fils_ doesn’t want to lose, and Karl Rove certainly doesn’t want him to lose, so you can bet the farm that even if Kerry had never uttered the words “service” or “Vietnam” that the Swifties would have come crawling out from beneath their rocks. > [@](#): > > If they are using the Clinton tactic (promoting a particular weakness as a strength) then it has to be done without any skeletons in his closet. Yeah, because Clinton certainly wasn’t bonin’ strange while turning his weakness to his strength. Nosir, not even one time. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately they found out that 527 money doesn’t mean anything if a strong message can be floated. 250 vets slamming the Senator is a powerful image. It was an advertising coup that has rightly been compared to the Blair Witch Project. A sensational message gets a lot of exposure for very little money. Eh, BWP was a barely adequate movie. And there are three Swifties that have gone down in flames as of my last check. And the number of vets is decreasing as well, once they realized that their statements were being applied to things that they never once spoke out on. “Strong message” my ass. > [@](#): > > I predict that the Swiftboat Vets attack on Senator Kerry’s military record is part 1 of 2. Whereas **I** predict that there will be a hell of a lot more than two parts. Bush knows that he can’t run on his own record, and the only thing to do is to try and make Kerry look worse. The Swiftie campaign is backfiring. I can hardly wait to see what’s next. > [@](#): > > You might also look for the Doonsbury cartoon about Kerry back in 71. Even Trudeau picked up on his self-promoting media stunts. If Bush starts claiming that Kerry is engaging is self-promoting media stunts, will he do so before or after he arrives at the RNC in NYC. He’s already given up on trouping down to Ground Zero, due entirely to the flap raised from his. . .self-promoting media stunt. And we mustn’t forget the Thanksgiving dinner that took place in Iraq. You remember that one, right? The. . .self-promoting media stunt. I know you do, because I’ll bet that you were one of the ones bitching that Hillary Rodham-Clinton was involved in a. . .self-promoting media stunt when she, too, was there. If he tries claiming that, it will blow back and cover him in the same shit that he’s trying to scrub off from the Swiftie debacle. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/909 "2004-08-27T20:14:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, since were talking about Presidential candidates: If President Bush was in charge of the Vietnam War the ground battles would have been over in a month with elections following a year later. There wouldn’t be any hand wringing finger-in-the-wind, UN waffling. He could have waited for hell to freeze (or a UN solution) but he didn’t. What an extraordinary proposition! I have heard many remarkable statements of faith in GeeDubya’s abilities and capacities, but this stands head and shoulders above the crowd! Johnson, McNamara, all of those, could not accomplish it, but a man of will and grit, a firm and unswerving leader like GeeDubya would make short work of those little brown buggers with thier funny pajamas. I only regret that, in your haste to post your pangyric to the Shining One, you neglected to advise us as to how this might have been done. Is it by sheer force of will? Would a just and loving God Almighty, previously reluctant to directly express any such committment, have swept the Godless Commies into the sea? A plague of boils, perhaps? Hosts of angels slashing Charlie with terrible swords of Wrath, hallelujah! Nuclear weapons? Biological warfare? How? And how might we word the announcement, so that the admiring world could gape with awe and wonder as the most powerful nation in human history indulges itself in the mindless massacre of a pathetic cripple of a nation? “The United States of America, having lost confidence in the population of Viet Nam, shall dissolve that population, and replace it with one more compliant with our views…” ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/910 "2004-08-27T20:29:16Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040826-3.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040826-3.html) > > The word “attack” does not appear anywhere in the press conference, which, of course, was conducted by the president’s official spokesman. > > I think I’ve demonstrated my point well enough. Now if you have some sort of Bush statement that says he only wants to ban “attack ads” and not other 527 issue ads, I would welcome you bringing that statement to the table. I am not trying to be a pain. Really. The interview you posted does not use the word attack. It uses the word “shadowy”. Are you claiming that Bush is claiming that all 527s whether involved in political attack ads or not are shadowy? I suppose that is possible, but it does not seem a reasonable interpretation of his position. I did, post a link to a press release on Bush’s site. It suggests that Bush is primarily interested in closing a campaign finance loophole. It appears to be a continuation of his earlier stated policy (after learning that the FEC interprets the law differently than he does) and thus not hypocracy. > [@Desmostylus](#): > > Seriously, though, pervert is just using the “Columbo” technique. Ask question after question after question, and pretend not to understand anything. Of course, on TV, Columbo always ends up with a “gotcha”. Sadly, that doesn’t ever seem to work out for pervert. I suppose that is one interpretation. Really, though, I am simplytrying to learn something. You know, fighting my own ignorance. I’m not trying to generate a “gotcha”. > [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > This ‘ad’ for Bush is definitely ‘shadowy’ in the extreme - would a ban on 527 ads. shut this site down too? Well, yes, a ban would. What Bush seems to be trying to do, however, is make the campaign finance laws apply to these 527 groups when they make adds which directly target particular candidates. He supposed that the recent campaign finance laws did this. But the ruling in May by the FEC essentially said that no, for this election at least, these laws do not apply to the 527s. I may be mistaken, but the laws do not prohibit political adds by PACs or 527s. They simply make certain rules about who and how much money these groups can raise for such things. Basically the laws make it easier to see who is funding this sort of ad. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/911 "2004-08-27T22:00:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **NI** , what “abuse of his Vietnam service record” do you mean? [ul]His theatrical antics in Congress in 1986, claiming Cambodia, Christmas and Nixon presidency of 1968 rolled in one as “seared, - seared! -into” him.[/ul][ul]His endless clubbering of political opponents with his Viet Nam record[/ul][ul]His presumptuous convention salute and saying that he knows how to fight a war, apparently because he’s been there[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/912 "2004-08-27T22:22:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What an extraordinary proposition! I have heard many remarkable statements of faith in GeeDubya’s abilities and capacities, but this stands head and shoulders above the crowd! Johnson, McNamara, all of those, could not accomplish it, but a man of will and grit, a firm and unswerving leader like GeeDubya would make short work of those little brown buggers with thier funny pajamas. “Johnson, McNamara, all of those” were the CAUSE of it. You’re not going to argue that Vietnam actually defeated the United States military are you? If so, have a muffin, start a thread. Thanks for the post though. Always enjoy your romp through the dictionary. 19 going for 20. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/913 "2004-08-27T23:09:08Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Not only that, it wasn’t even treasonous. > Yup. There was Kerry, just repeating what he had been told. Every statement that he gave, I rush to add, has since been proven correct. > > \*\* Proven, really? Names, dates, convictions related to his testimony? It was a publicity stunt. He shot his mouth off for the camera. It was a given that some atrocities occured during the war. Closed door sessions were the appropriate venue along with ACTUAL PROOF OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. \*\* > > So if only the Pentagon had been given it’s head, the US would have won? You realize that there’s precious little to back up your assertion, but refuse to debate it. My, how intellectually dishonest of you. > > **yes, and start your own thread if you don’t like my opion. It’s been discussed enough in the media to establish it as a credible opinion.** > > Yeah! Damn him for flip-flopping anyway! Treasonous bastard! > > \*\* Agreed\*\* > > Horsehit, sparky. Bush _fils_ doesn’t want to lose, and Karl Rove certainly doesn’t want him to lose, so you can bet the farm that even if Kerry had never uttered the words “service” or “Vietnam” that the Swifties would have come crawling out from beneath their rocks. > > \*\* Equine chips right back at yah Zippy. 250 Veterans are pissed about what Kerry did. You can argue until you’re blue in the face. You’re certainly not going to change MY mind. Defending Kerry’s Veteran back-stabbing just makes it worse in the eyes of the Veterans (who represent a voting block that Kerry is fishing for). > \*\* > > Yeah, because Clinton certainly wasn’t bonin’ strange while turning his weakness to his strength. Nosir, not even one time. > > **huh?**. > Eh, BWP was a barely adequate movie. And there are three Swifties that have gone down in flames as of my last check. And the number of vets is decreasing as well, once they realized that their statements were being applied to things that they never once spoke out on. “Strong message” my ass. > > **We’re in agreement then that you should keep Keep defending him.** > Whereas **I** predict that there will be a hell of a lot more than two parts. Bush knows that he can’t run on his own record, and the only thing to do is to try and make Kerry look worse. The Swiftie campaign is backfiring. I can hardly wait to see what’s next. > > If Bush starts claiming that Kerry is engaging is self-promoting media stunts, will he do so before or after he arrives at the RNC in NYC. He’s already given up on trouping down to Ground Zero. > > \*\*Bush doesn’t have to claim anything. His campaign just needs to show clips of Kerry sticking it to the vets. That’s the problem with playing to the camera. It becomes a matter of record. > > And if the President of the United States didn’t make a show at “Ground Zero” he would have been ripped in the News Papers. > \*\* > And we mustn’t forget the Thanksgiving dinner that took place in Iraq. You remember that one, right? The. . .self-promoting media stunt. I know you do, because I’ll bet that you were one of the ones bitching that Hillary Rodham-Clinton was involved in a. . .self-promoting media stunt when she, too, was there. If he tries claiming that, it will blow back and cover him in the same shit that he’s trying to scrub off from the Swiftie debacle. \*\* Yah, the troops really hated that visit. And it was surely timed to take the wind out of Senator Clinton’s trip, which made me laugh, and laugh, and laugh some more. I laugh every time I imagine the expression on her face when she found out about it. As did my friends who were over there.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/914 "2004-08-28T01:56:13Z")
So, **Magiver** , if you’re only going to address one point in **GL Wasteful’s** long post (and an irrelevant tangent, at that), couldn’t you have, you know, snipped out the rest? All the points you failed to answer? Meanwhile, [yet another voice is heard](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/2004/08/27/kerrys_medals_were_deserved_says_widow_of_slain_comrade/) contradicting the Swifties’ claims that Kerry’s medals were undeserved: > [@](#): > > Lieutenant Donald Droz knew more about John F. Kerry’s service in Vietnam than most men. By Kerry’s side when he earned both the Silver and Bronze Stars, Kerry’s fellow swift boat captain and friend spoke often of his admiration for the Yalie he called “a real fine guy.” > > But Droz, a key witness in the ongoing debate over Kerry’s service record, is missing from it, killed in a rocket attack in Vietnam in April 1969 days after Kerry returned home. While Droz cannot defend Kerry, his widow, Judith Droz Keyes, said she feels she must. She said she is confident that her husband would defend both Kerry’s record in Vietnam and his antiwar activism. > > “John Kerry was a good friend, and a loyal friend to my late husband,” she said in a telephone interview from her office in San Francisco. “My husband isn’t here to speak, and all I can do is to speak in his name. I don’t feel I can remain silent anymore.” > > Keyes said that by challenging Kerry’s record, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group of former veterans opposed to Kerry’s presidential candidacy, are dishonoring the memory of men such as her husband who fought by Kerry’s side. “The suggestion that what Don did or that the award he got was somehow undeserved is crossing a line,” she said. Of course, she’s merely repeating what her husband told her (other than her own observations of Kerry’s character), so of course, as hearsay, her testimony must be dismissed when compared to the rock-solid evidence of the Swifties’ hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/915 "2004-08-28T02:58:58Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > So, **Magiver** , if you’re only going to address one point in **GL Wasteful’s** long post (and an irrelevant tangent, at that), couldn’t you have, you know, snipped out the rest? All the points you failed to answer?. :smack: You know, I could try to pass off the blame onto _ **you** _ for sloppy coding that put all but your last reply into one long quote box. [Tricky Dick] But that would be wrong. [/Tricky Dick] Okay, **Magiver** , you did in fact answer the other points. I was wrong on that. :o The validity of your answers? You haven’t made the sale, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/916 "2004-08-28T03:12:22Z")
A liar is a liar is a liar… > [@](#): > > Clackamas County prosecutor Alfred French, who called Sen. John Kerry a liar in a political commercial, acknowledged Thursday that he lied to his boss when confronted about an extramarital affair with a colleague. [http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front\_page/109360837947360.xml](http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109360837947360.xml) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/917 "2004-08-28T03:18:12Z")
You know, when I was a Wiccan, there was a saying… “If you’re going to invoke the Goddess of Swift Justice on an enemy, you’d better hope you have a perfectly clean karma slate.” It was demonstrated with Clinton’s detractors (how many times were Gingrich’s, Barr’s, and Hyde’s “youthful indiscretions” pushed to the surface?), and it’s demonstrated with the Swift Boat Bullshitters for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/918 "2004-08-28T04:06:45Z")
[QUOTE=New Iskander] His endless clubbering of political opponents with his Viet Nam record/QUOTE] Clubbering? I think you just made up a new word. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/919 "2004-08-28T04:16:43Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > :smack: > > Okay, **Magiver** , you did in fact answer the other points. I was wrong on that. :o > > The validity of your answers? You haven’t made the sale, at least to me. Yah, I screwed up the coding. Pisses me off to no end but I have dial-up and it is a PIA to use preview post repeatedly. I will probably buy faster service the next time I fold a keyboard in half. Although it seems like I’m trying to make a sale I’m really pointing out the position of the Veterans. Kerry’s war protest and testimony made a large enough splash to garner a Doonsbury cartoon of him. It was a big deal back then and it apparently left an open wound with the Vets. I haven’t really addressed much of the SB Vet arguments because it’s mostly he-said-she-said. I personally believe they’re all right (including Kerry) to a certain extent because it is almost impossible to reconstruct events under stress. Having just healed from a barroom brawl I still don’t know what happened and I was literally in the middle of it. I would expect people (after hitting a mine) to shoot at every bird and animal that reacted to the noise. I don’t know if he was shot at and I really don’t care. He was out there in harms way (kudo’s to Lt. Kerry). However, if he had made amends to these Vets years ago I think he would be sailing pretty right now. I’m not sure what to make of his purple hearts. Since I’m not a Veteran I don’t like commenting on them. I think the damage to his image in this area is from the perception of what it takes to get one. I use to think that a purple heart required some kind of down time (broken leg, shredded skin, etc…) but that is not true from what I’ve read. Unfortunately, the court of public opinion will probably see it in a similar light. Everyone’s cut themself and needed a Band-Aid ™ or received a bruise so it’s hard for people to equate a purple heart to a minor injury. The Swiftboat Vets are taking their anger out on Senator Kerry over every aspect of his career. It’s free speech, it’s sad politics, and if Kerry had included them in his war crimes mia culpa he would have more Veteran votes today. If you put yourself in the SB Vet’s shoes, they watched him publicly agonize over his treatment of the Vietnamese and wonder where their apology was. That just made it worse. I am going to toss a softball up so someone can knock it down (not sure how to Google it) Did Lt. Kerry really film himself while piloting a boat (camera in one hand)? If this is true his crewmates would have to think him the glory hound. I hope it’s not true but I would like to bury it. I came across it looking for something else and now I can’t find it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/920 "2004-08-28T04:34:26Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > So are you sating that the navy have a code to write reports in - where what they say actually means the opposite of what the words mean? This is a really bizarre notion - cite please!! It is a code, and you have to look past the narratives. I’m trying to find a cite that isn’t blisteringly anti-Kerry. I’m asking fellow vets to back me up here. In the military, you always want your checkmarks on your evals or fitreps in the left land column. That’s the “outstanding” column. About ten years back, the Navy reformed the system to correct the system so that overinflated evals and fitreps and evals were curbed somewhat. In John Kerry’s day, an officer was expected to line up straight outstandings, unless he was a trainee or was in a situation where he wasn’t observed at a unit for very long. Even one check mark in the “excellent” column was a signal to a junior officer to unfuck himself quickly, or he’d be in deep trouble. Getting another “excellent” on another fitrep was a career ender. It told selection boards you couldn’t be trusted with command of a large ship or a boat or plane squadron. And command is the goal for a junior officer. A good command tour opens up flag rank. By these standards, Kerry’s fitreps were a signal to him that his services were valued in wartime, but the Navy didn’t want him to stick around and make the service a career. Kerry had many “excellents” and even many “superiors” which were a death knell to the selection boards. [Take a look at the fitness reports here.](http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf) Now, you don’t need to be a career officer to be a hero. My problems with Kerry concern what happened when he came home from Vietnam, not what happened while he was there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=47)