# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/941 "2004-08-28T18:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, if I attacked somebody’s character and came up that screamingly short, I’d be too embarassed to go on. I’d feel ashamed of myself. I’d even apologize. As would I, and I have. I take that as a measure of personal responsibility or accountability, of which conservatives like to claim primary ownership. Also integrity, honesty and honor. These are very important to me as well. Were I you, I wouldn’t hold my breath. This wasn’t an honorable mission to begin with. Footsoldiers for poop-slingers don’t appear to get twinges of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/942 "2004-08-28T18:19:58Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > Oh, and I thought it was a typo for ‘clobbering’ - a word with [I think] much the same meaning, but in common usage in this country. Yes, actually it was a typo for “clobbering”. Yes, I can have it both ways. No, you still don’t understand. _You_ can’t have it both ways. _Nobody else_ can have it both ways. Only me. ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/943 "2004-08-28T19:18:43Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > No, you still don’t understand. _You_ can’t have it both ways. _Nobody else_ can have it both ways. Only me. I believe this is what Al Franken calls “kidding on the square.” That’s when you say something like you’re kidding but actually mean it. And, in New Iskander’s case it would explain a lot, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/944 "2004-08-28T19:35:03Z")
Oh, I dunno, be willing to entertain a Motion to Cut Some Slack. A willingness towards mocking one’s own opinion shows a mind opening, if not entirely open. A bit more outreach, perhaps, for one stumbling towards the light. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/945 "2004-08-28T20:55:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > However, there seems to be a discrepancy. Kerry ran for Congress in 1970 on “on an immediate-withdrawal platform” and was beaten by more qualified candidate running on the same platform. The platform must have been popular, then. Not at all. As \*\*Eddy \*\* already pointed out, the platform was popular with some and unpopular with others. > [@](#): > > In addition, there seems to be a clear path from running for office on such a platform and giving the well-known testimony a year later. Sure. So? Is your position “Kerry has no character, therefore whatever he did was strictly for political advantage, which proves he has no character etc.” Or is it possible that he did and said what he did because it was right and necessary, as history has since proven? While we’re talking about character, **Hentor** is dead right about those frequent posters here who lack the integrity to admit they were fooled into telling lies all along. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/946 "2004-08-28T21:01:26Z")
I’ve got a headache ! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/947 "2004-08-28T21:38:03Z")
**To the Mods** I think that I have used the signature in a couple of other places, but after reading your warning here, I will use it no more. (4:35 pm, CDST, Saturday, August 28, 2204) > [@](#): > > **elucidator** : The phrase “And the horse upon in which you rode” is a jocular response to “Little David” Simmons paraphrase of Churchill’s example of syntax tortured to confess! “Some shit up with which I will not put” or somesuch. Aha! All has been made clear and I have made a new friend out of it anyway. (You can relax, **Shayna**. All is well and you didn’t have to do a thing.) > [@](#): > > **Magiver** : No offense Zoe but grow some testicles. If you’re a retired English teacher you shouldn’t need the glowing good graces of someone who is of a “youthful nature” in his writing style. Elucidator is creative with language but so is Snoop Doggy Dog. Enjoy his antics for what they are and treat it as the entertainment he intends it to be. It wasn’t _his_ use of a split infinitive that would have had me blushing. (If Gene Rodenberry and Norman Mailer can do it, then certainly _elucidator_ has more than earned the right to be whimsical with the language. You and I are in total agreement on that. And that particular rule is becoming more flexible anyway. What I said, if you will reread, is that _I_ would blush if _I_ had included that split infinitive. Elucidator can get away with it. English teachers are merciless with each other. I don’t know why you would think that a retired English teacher wouldn’t need the “glowing good graces” of someone who is of a “youthful nature in his writing style.” I suspect that what you describe as “youthful” has little to do with age, but more to do with wit, insight and cleverness that appeals to all ages. The young have no monopoly on an appreciation of that gift. It would be fascinating to know what characteristic I have that testicles would improve upon. I take it that this is not a Republican concept. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/948 "2004-08-28T21:43:39Z")
I doubt that Kerry was looking ahead 35 years and planning his run for the Presidency so far in advance. But if he _was_, that kind of strategic planning ability would certainly be a change for the better from what we have now! ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/949 "2004-08-28T21:45:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I dunno, be willing to entertain a Motion to Cut Some Slack. A willingness towards mocking one’s own opinion shows a mind opening, if not entirely open. A bit more outreach, perhaps, for one stumbling towards the light. Hm. You may have a point, I must confess. It **is** a self-deprecating, humorous remark. New Iskander should get points for that. Oh, thanks. Now you’ve thrown me into confusion. Nice work elucidator. Epoxy on you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/950 "2004-08-28T21:45:22Z")
I don’t suppose one necessarily has to grown one’s own. Witness Emma Goldman, Molly Ivins, Anne Richards, so on and so forth. And I suppose, one could simply employ a standard set of pruning shears, if one were to have an appropriate donor, willing or not. I could provide a list… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/951 "2004-08-28T22:45:27Z")
**luci** , have you been going through my bookshelves? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/952 "2004-08-28T23:09:34Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **luci** , have you been going through my bookshelves? Could be worse; could be your drawers. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/953 "2004-08-28T23:13:51Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > With Purple Hearts, you gotta remember: It’s better to make a mistake and award one than to deny one honestly earned. In spite of the fact they they are (or were, anyway) made from 24k. gold. > > \>snip\< > > And as to whether the schrapnel was from kerry’s grenade or the deadly VC rice, or from his M-79 round (which generally speaking do not bite back, they throw schrapnel at 90 degrees from the plane of trajectory in 360 degrees around - I had one go off about 15 feet or so from me, but I was behind it and therefore safe {they don’t arm until they have traveled a certain distance from the barrel - hence at point blank range they don’t detonate} it’s real hard to catch schrapnel from your own M-79) or some other cause is irrelevent. > > Fact: More people die in hospitals from sepsis (secondary infection) than from the original cause for admission. In combat conditions, infection is probably even easier to acquire, save for the good first aid we got from corpsmen. \*\*Well stated and I agree with everything you’ve said. I haven’t discounted any medals for being self generated (versus self inflicted). Grenades don’t come with a money back guarantee. Not a big fan of minor wounds (tiny splinter, stubbed toe etc…) but if it gets roaring infected then that adds to the wound. Just walking through a swamp in battle and getting a flesh eating bacteria out to count for a couple of medals by itself. I think you have to give some quarter to the notion that there are such things as minor scrapes and scratches. Somewhere between a paper cut and a missing finger lies a medal. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/954 "2004-08-29T00:11:14Z")
Headline: More Believe Bush Behind Attack Ads [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040828/ap\_on\_el\_pr/kerry\_vietnam\_opinion](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040828/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_vietnam_opinion) Which is good since the polls that came out after the one I had the good taste to gloat about showed that the Shifties were hurting Kerry. I think I was premature but only premature. People don’t like being lied to and Bush was acting like, gee whiz, I’ve got nothing to do with it. Guess I’ll take the high ground and demand an end to all these groups including the ones who are defending Kerry by being significantly more accurate. If there’s any justice, there should be a nicely gratifying boomerang effect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/955 "2004-08-29T00:32:37Z")
There ain’t. It won’t. Nobody reads the retractons. The Bushiviks won that round on points. They managed to damage Kerry some, and get out in time to clamber to the moral high ground, bat the big brown Bambi eyes and say “Who? Me?”. Good news if they had been able to _really_ make it stick, they would have totally clubbered Kerry, we would be arguing whether he should step aside and let Edwards have at it. But it was a steaming load, so they only got those people who don’t examine issues _at all_. (The same people, you say “Gore says he invented the internet, and Kerry’s a flip-flopper” thats its, you got 'em.) Bush has been on a long slide down, with occasional uptics, and then resuming its glide path. There’s no reason to think that won’t continue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/956 "2004-08-29T00:50:19Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’ll take merely ‘excellent’ over ‘grossly incompetent’ every single day of the year. > > ‘Mediocre’ would be a vast _improvement_ over the lying idiot we’ve got in charge now. > > And after having met him, I can now concur that John Kerry is, indeed, inspirational, contagiously enthusiastic, diplomatic, dynamic and “particularly dept in his relations with people from all strata.” I’d also add insightful, charming, witty, intelligent and warm. And apropos of nothing; tall. Very, very tall! > > As to **Magiver** , all I can do is drop my jaw in utter disbelief. Although it should come as no surprise to me that there are people out there like you, who actually believe that the hideousness of war crimes should be hidden from the public, never exposed and only discussed behind closed doors, given that that’s exactly the frightening mentality with which our Despicable Misleader is trying to run our country. > > It should come as no surprise that I vehemently disagree with you. What John Kerry did when he came back from 'Nam was _honorable_. He owes _no one_ an apology for speaking the truth and exposing the criminal activity that some of our troops were perpetrating on fellow human beings. It turns my stomach that you actually condone secrecy over exposure. I thank G-d not all men are like you, or we’d never have learned about the atrocities of Abu Ghraib. And without the public outrage, I have my doubts that those horrifying abuses would have ever stopped (if they even have, seeing as how the monster who wrote the ““Interrogation Rules of Engagement,” specifying that soldiers… may subject prisoners to dietary manipulation, sleep deprivation, stress positions and the “presence of mil working dogs”,” is now in charge of _all_ the prisons in Iraq. “Instead of court-martialing the man who authored the plan to subject prisoners at Abu Ghraib to harsh abuses, Rumsfeld has left him in charge of the facility.” [[Source](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story?id=6388256&rnd=1091336776270&rnd=1091358611905&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.687)].) > > And Kerry should have kept it behind closed doors? > > \*\* Yes, absolutely. And it has nothing to do with secrecy. Open sessions have always been dog and pony shows for politicians. Closed-door sessions produce greater amounts of information because they protect both the person testifying and anyone who may suffer otherwise. POW’s were threatened with war crimes trials. Imagine being in a hostage situation and having an outside agitator (your comrade) making statements that upset your captors. > > Long before you ever heard about Abu Ghraib the wheels of justice were turning. And they were turning because of information received without the aid of newscasters and the ever-brave Ted Kennedy. All those public pictures managed to do were get some head’s cut off. > > You’re upset? Give me a break. Try talking to a Vet. I have. Watch their eyes tear up over real atrocities. Good luck when you do, most Vets won’t tell you anything about their experiences. \*\* \*\*Finally, your excessive emotional diatribe does nothing to forward your point of view. Your post was filled with terms like, “grossly incompetent”, “frightening mentality”, ”Despicable Misleader”, and ”lying idiot”. There are 2 candidates in this race. One of them denigrates his opponent with your style of language and the other doesn’t. How you treat your opponent is of mark of character. You may feel justified shoveling vindictive unabated but it adds nothing to the discussion. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/957 "2004-08-29T00:57:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There ain’t. It won’t. Nobody reads the retractons. I remain optimistic. If people understand the Shifties were a put-up job then the charges should lose credibility. In any case we’ll know in about seven to ten days. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/958 "2004-08-29T01:08:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not at all. As \*\*Eddy \*\* already pointed out, the platform was popular with some and unpopular with others. The political platform Kerry joined after coming home from Viet Nam was obviously popular enough to promise election to Congress from Kerry district. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is your position “Kerry has no character, therefore whatever he did was strictly for political advantage, which proves he has no character etc.” Or is it possible that he did and said what he did because it was right and necessary, as history has since proven? No. The only thing I was wondering whether Kerry stance in 1970 was really all that politically damaging, as some people here insisted. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/959 "2004-08-29T01:17:31Z")
But he didn’t get elected until much later, after the furor had died down. Look, I don’t think Kerry was motivated by political expediency. I think he was genuinely anti-war at the time. Of course, I also think some of his tactics while advocating this platform were unnecessarily over the top. He has to account for it, which is fair, since he believed it at the time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/960 "2004-08-29T01:18:21Z")
I think Kerry lost in 1970. Not sure, I could look it up if I wasn’t so lazy and easily …look! Shiny! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=49)