# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![asrivkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9d8465/32.png) [@asrivkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asrivkin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/961 "2004-08-29T02:04:40Z")
I don’t see that Kerry ran for Congress in 1970: [http://clerk.house.gov/members/electionInfo/1970election.pdf](http://clerk.house.gov/members/electionInfo/1970election.pdf) (warning: pdf!) He lost a close(ish) race in 1972 in the 5th district, 111k - 93 k to Republican Martin Linsky. It was the only contested race in the Commonwealth that a Republican won: [http://clerk.house.gov/members/electionInfo/1972election.pdf](http://clerk.house.gov/members/electionInfo/1972election.pdf). If this thread should set the record, do I get a commemorative mug for contributing? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/962 "2004-08-29T02:35:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, absolutely. And it has nothing to do with secrecy. Open sessions have always been dog and pony shows for politicians. Closed-door sessions produce greater amounts of information because they protect both the person testifying and anyone who may suffer otherwise. POW’s were threatened with war crimes trials. Imagine being in a hostage situation and having an outside agitator (your comrade) making statements that upset your captors. > > Long before you ever heard about Abu Ghraib the wheels of justice were turning. And they were turning because of information received without the aid of newscasters and the ever-brave Ted Kennedy. All those public pictures managed to do were get some head’s cut off. > > You’re upset? Give me a break. Try talking to a Vet. I have. Watch their eyes tear up over real atrocities. Good luck when you do, most Vets won’t tell you anything about their experiences. That is complete nonsense and entirely offensive to every citizen of this country. Not only do I not agree for a second that closed-door sessions produce greater amounts of information, we have a _right_ to know what our government and our military are doing in our name. And if you think the wheels of justice were going anywhere, let alone where they should’ve been going (and still aren’t, in several cases), then you are sadly mistaken. Frankly, I’d call what they were doing, a **coverup**. And now you’re blaming the exposure of our military’s atrocities for the acts of the terrorists? You really haven’t been paying attention have you? The terrorists have known about the abuses _long_ before we did, and they were [cutting off heads long before](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/21/missing.reporter/) a single news outlet even knew the name Abu Gahrib. And don’t presume to know whether or not I’ve talked to veterans. You’d be wrong. > [@Magiver](#): > > Finally, your excessive emotional diatribe does nothing to forward your point of view. Your post was filled with terms like, “grossly incompetent”, “frightening mentality”, ”Despicable Misleader”, and ”lying idiot”. > > There are 2 candidates in this race. One of them denigrates his opponent with your style of language and the other doesn’t. How you treat your opponent is of mark of character. You may feel justified shoveling vindictive unabated but it adds nothing to the discussion. My post was filled with factual descriptors. George W. Bush _is_ grossly incompetent. He’s spent the last 3½ years _proving_ that. He’s driven this economy into the crapper; millions of jobs have been lost; millions _more_ people are without health insurance than in 1999; his administration has exposed a CIA operative, jeopardizing all of her cases, not to mention her life; exposed an internal Al Qaeda spy, setting back his “war on terror” all the way back to the '90s; he’s lied to congress to get his medicare bill passed; lied to the _world_ about false, and in some cases, made-up evidence to send us, along with other nations to WAR! And that’s just scratching the surface of his incompetence. “Grossly incompetent” is a proveable fact. “Frightening mentality” is absolutely accurate, given the horrors thousands of people have faced due to _his_ policies and actions. He _is_ despicable for _having_ misled us! Do you really contend that liars are not despicable?? He _is_ a liar. That is a _fact_, not an opinion. About the only opinion in there is ‘idiot’, which, based on all of the above, I have no apology for calling him. You are right about one thing, though; one of the candidates denigrates his opponent and the other has continually tried to talk about the issues, only to be affronted by continual slader. Except the candidates don’t align the way you imply they do. Finally, learn how to code or bite the bullet and take the time to preview, slow modem or not. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/963 "2004-08-29T02:35:58Z")
**Mr. Moto** , stop being reasonable. It throws me off. **Magiver** has said that if George W. had been in charge of the war in Vietnam, the gound battles would have been over in a month. I contend that Bush is making the same mistakes that lead to our defeat in Vietnam and I offer the following for your consideration. [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040124/MCNAMARA/TPComment/Columnists](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040124/MCNAMARA/TPComment/Columnists) Former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara has published three books examining the mistakes that led to the Vietnam War. (He is largely considered the architect of that war, but nowconsiders it to have been a terrible wrong. In his view, these are the main myths and miscalculations that we made then. (The first of these books was published in 1995.) **McNamara’s 11 lessons** (I’ve rearranged the order) Which of these are parallels to our actions in Iraq? > [@](#): > > We misjudged then – and we have since – the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions. > > We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported **fully (and not merely cosmetically)** by the international community. > > Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders. > > We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people’s or country’s best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. **We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.** > > We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world. > > Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the Executive Branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues. > > We failed then – and have since – to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine…We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture. > > We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action. > > We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country. > > We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values. > > After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did. (bolding is mine) ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/964 "2004-08-29T02:59:08Z")
[http://www.truthout.org/docs\_04/082904X.shtml](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/082904X.shtml) > [@](#): > > After Ginsberg resigned from the campaign on Wednesday, 50 percent said in polling the next two nights that the Bush campaign was connected to the ads and 34 percent said it was not. > > ``` > Ginsberg and lawyers on the Democratic side have represented both the campaigns or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. > > The poll of 1,244 adults was taken Aug. 23-28 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. > > ``` The times…they are a changin’. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/965 "2004-08-29T04:07:07Z")
A thousand pardons, just like **Magiver** , I am using twentieth century technology in this twenty-first century world. Now, onto what I’m able to hit: > [@Magiver](#): > > Proven, really? Names, dates, convictions related to his testimony? Well, testimony doesn’t always lead to conviction. Hell, sometimes it doesn’t even lead to getting laid. But yeah, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that what Kerry testified to has been backed up by enough testimony from others who were there to qualify it as “proven”. > [@](#): > > It was a publicity stunt. He shot his mouth off for the camera. Except that I believe, and Kerry’s subsequent statements back me up, as do those of a helluva lot of other people, that he wanted Vietnam to end because he had seen it firsthand, and realized that it was going nowhere fast. Plus, he said that a whole lot of people were breaking, pissing on and otherwise treating shabbily the laws of war. Was he brash and aswagger? Sure. So what? > [@](#): > > It was a given that some atrocities occured during the war. Closed door sessions were the appropriate venue along with ACTUAL PROOF OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. Sorry, boychik, but closed door sessions do one thing and one thing only: keep shit behind closed doors. Fuck that noise. > [@](#): > > 250 Veterans are pissed about what Kerry did. A little credit where credit is due. Far more than 250 vets are pissed. Of course, a lot of vets feel that he spoke truth to power, so it winds up being a wash. > [@](#): > > You can argue until you’re blue in the face. You’re certainly not going to change MY mind. Defending Kerry’s Veteran back-stabbing just makes it worse in the eyes of the Veterans (who represent a voting block that Kerry is fishing for). Well damn! And here I was, all freshly scrubbed and ready, only to be told that I’ll not change _your_ mind. When that’s really all I ever wanted. Alack, alas and all like that. And I dunno if you’ve noticed or not, but there are these groups, they call themselves “Veterans for Kerry”. It doesn’t appear (at least, not from where **I’m** sitting, but my seat’s kinda far in the back and I’m behind a really tall guy) that **they** feel that stabbed in the back, or that their bloc needs to be fished for. > [@](#): > > Bush doesn’t have to claim anything. His campaign just needs to show clips of Kerry sticking it to the vets. That’s the problem with playing to the camera. It becomes a matter of record. Um, yeah, he kinda does. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed or not, but there’s an election going on. Eventually Bush _fils_ is gonna **hafta** start talking about some of the things that he likes to pretend that he did. Or he’s going to lose by an even bigger margin than he is at present. > [@](#): > > And if the President of the United States didn’t make a show at “Ground Zero” he would have been ripped in the News Papers. Newsflash, Skip: He won’t be putting in an appearance. > [@](#): > > The Swiftboat Vets are taking their anger out on Senator Kerry over every aspect of his career. It’s free speech, it’s sad politics, and if Kerry had included them in his war crimes mia culpa he would have more Veteran votes today. No. They’re taking out their anger because of his testimony before congress. They have to pretend, though, that it’s his service that they’re pissed about. They’re just too fucking cowardly to come right out and say what’s got their knickers in a twist. > [@Zoe](#): > > I doubt that Kerry was looking ahead 35 years and planning his run for the Presidency so far in advance. But if he was, that kind of strategic planning ability would certainly be a change for the better from what we have now! I brought this up way back in the mists of page 10? 12? 8? I honestly don’t remember, and nobody who is bagging on Kerry will remark on it in a more than passing fashion. So, **Magiver** , **New Iskander** and anyone else who thinks that Kerry was a shameless glory whore: Do you think that he was anticipating his run 35ish years ago? And I once again apologize for getting back to this in a less-than-timely fashion. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/966 "2004-08-29T04:29:14Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > But he didn’t get elected until much later, after the furor had died down. > > Look, I don’t think Kerry was motivated by political expediency. I think he was genuinely anti-war at the time. Of course, I also think some of his tactics while advocating this platform were unnecessarily over the top. > > He has to account for it, which is fair, since he believed it at the time. According tp ‘Elvis L1ves’, Kerry lost election to Congress in 1970 to another Democrat who represented anti-war platform even better. I never said that Kerry is motivated by political expediency. I said that he advocates his causes to the point of losing touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/967 "2004-08-29T04:49:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No offense Zoe but grow some testicles. **Moderator’s Note:** **Magiver** , don’t tell other posters in GD to “grow some testicles”. I think that falls under the bounds of “[discuss[ing] someone’s bowels or genitalia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4749265#post4749265)”, and is not exactly relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/968 "2004-08-29T05:00:17Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** **Magiver** , don’t tell other posters in GD to “grow some testicles”. I think that falls under the bounds of “[discuss[ing] someone’s bowels or genitalia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4749265#post4749265)”, and is not exactly relevant here. Sheesh! Youse guys in GD have the most detailed rules! I can’t remember the last time I warned a GQ poster about entrails, etc. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/969 "2004-08-29T06:04:28Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Sheesh! Youse guys in GD have the most detailed rules! > > I can’t remember the last time I warned a GQ poster about entrails, etc. 😃 It’s sadly neessary, Sam. Otherwise, Grat Debaters would start whipping out nunchackas, crossbows, illegal assault weapons and 1920’s style death-rays to counter their opponents’ beliefs. Such is the nature of blind obesience. Death before defamation! ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/970 "2004-08-29T06:10:00Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > George W. Bush _is_ grossly incompetent. Isn’t that one of his campaign arguments? “Vote for me, cause you KNOW I’m grossly incompetent. Vote for Kerry, and who KNOWS what you’ll get?” People have a tendency to vote for the known quantity, so look for him to back it up in the coming months… ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/971 "2004-08-29T07:02:35Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > > [@Shayna](#): > > > > George W. Bush is grossly incompetent. > > Isn’t that one of his campaign arguments? > “Vote for me, cause you KNOW I’m grossly incompetent. > Vote for Kerry, and who KNOWS what you’ll get?” > > People have a tendency to vote for the known quantity, so look for him to back it up in the coming months… Well, he hasn’t got anything else! > [@](#): > > [THE REAL ISSUE: BUSH IS INCOMPETENT](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=123&e=1&u=/ucrr/20040827/cm_ucrr/therealissuebushisincompetent) > > \ > > Whether you agree or disagree with the words pouring from the podium over Americans who see reflections of themselves in George W. Bush, the real issue of this election will not be mentioned. The core issue is this: Our president is incompetent. He is not a good president. > > Let me count the ways: > > (1) He has divided the country; \ > > (2) He has divided the world. \ > > (3) He is leaving no child or grandchild without debt. \ > > (4) He campaigns as a champion of smaller government, but is greatly increasing the size and role of government. \ > > (5) He is diminishing the military of which he is so proud now as commander in chief. \ > > (6) He is diminishing scientific progress, the great engine of the 20th century. \ > > (7) He is diminishing the Constitution of the United States. \ > > (8) He has surrounded himself with other incompetents. \ > > (9) He has been unable or unwilling to deal with declining employment and the rising medical costs of becoming an older nation. > > (10) He is, as if by design, destroying the credibility of the United States as a force for peace in the world – an honest broker – particularly in the Middle East. > > The list is longer, miscalculation after miscalculation. President Bush has not been able to function effectively at this pay grade. He may mean well, but this has been a difficult time, and he is in over his head. We and our kids will pay the price for his blundering, blunderbuss adventure in Washington. He has been tested in a difficult time – and, unhappily for all of us and the world, he has not been up to the job. The only thing he _can_ do is play on the pent up anger a subset of vets are holding onto for John Kerry being the messenger of _truth_. It’s a disgusting tactic, but nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/972 "2004-08-29T08:05:14Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Isn’t that one of his campaign arguments? > “Vote for me, cause you KNOW I’m grossly incompetent. > Vote for Kerry, and who KNOWS what you’ll get?” Someone who’s less incompetent, because there’s nowhere to go but up where Bush is concerned… I can only think of one presidential candidate who could do a job worse than Bush, and Dan Quayle ain’t running this year. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/973 "2004-08-29T10:48:39Z")
> [@](#): > > **SamClem** : I can’t remember the last time I warned a GQ poster about entrails, etc. And I can’t remember the last time someone suggested that I might need testicles. (Must have been right before he started screaming and begging for mercy.) 😉 Hell, I don’t even need ovaries. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/974 "2004-08-29T11:36:44Z")
> [@asrivkin](#): > > I don’t see that Kerry ran for Congress in 1970. [Let’s have a little fun and cite bushfordummies.com, shall we?](http://www.bushfordummies.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59) > [@](#): > > January 3, 1970: > Kerry requests that he be discharged early from the Navy so that he can run for Congress in Massachusetts’ Third District. The request is granted, and Kerry begins his first political campaign. > > February 1970: > Kerry drops his bid for the Democratic nomination and supports Robert F. Drinan. Drinan, a staunch opponent of the war, wins the race and goes on to serve in Congress for ten years. > > June 1970: > Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and becomes one of the group’s unofficial spokespeople. > > April 23, 1971: > Kerry helps to organize a huge anti-war protest outside Congress, earning a place on president Richard Nixon’s “enemies’ list.” He joins a group of Vietnam veterans who throw medals and campaign ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol. > > April 23, 1971: > Kerry testifies before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He tells lawmakers: “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?” > > November 10, 1971: > Kerry quits Vietnam Veterans Against the War. > > April 1972: > Kerry moves to Massachusetts’ 5th District to run for Congress again. He wins the Democratic nomination but loses to Republican Paul Cronin, in part because of his anti-war views. Barney Frank took over the 3rd District seat from Father Drinan when the Vatican ruled that it was inappropriate for priests to hold public office. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/975 "2004-08-29T11:44:38Z")
**magiver** , you might want to read [this Pulitzer-winning series of articles](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040512/SRTIGERFORCE/405120331) by Joe Mahr of the Toledo Blade about “Tiger Force” and their actions in Vietnam before you suggest again that that shit never happened, or was only rumor. Kerry in 1971, again, was repeating things he had been told himself directly by those who did it. **Zoe** , I’ve been “impressed” by how McNamara has said nothing at all in public about Bush and Iraq. If he really did learn the lessons he has said he did, he’d feel some compulsion to apply them, one might think. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/976 "2004-08-29T15:12:06Z")
I thought the White House message was that Kerry served with honor and was telling the truth about his record. Atrios suggests that Laura Bush says otherwise in Time magazine: [http://atrios.blogspot.com](http://atrios.blogspot.com) > [@](#): > > TIME > Do you think these swift-boat ads are unfair to John Kerry? > > BUSH > Do I think they’re unfair? Not really. I wasn’t able to access the linked-to Time article, but if accurate, is she off message, or on hatchet job? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/977 "2004-08-29T15:42:07Z")
[The Time interview with Laura Bush:](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040906-689398,00.html) > [@](#): > > TIME > Do you think these swift-boat ads are unfair to John Kerry? > > BUSH > Do I think they’re unfair? Not really. There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband. That’s all there is on that subject, in what is otherwise a typical fluff interview. Behold the GOP approach: The factuality of campaign statements isn’t to be discussed, only their negativity. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/978 "2004-08-29T15:42:39Z")
She means, as I understand it, that poor GeeBubbya (Praise the Leader!) has also suffered, poor baby, the dreadful calumnies of shadowy groups. So she means “fair” in the sense of equal opportunity, rather than “fair” in terms of accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/979 "2004-08-29T15:45:05Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I thought the White House message was that Kerry served with honor and was telling the truth about his record. Atrios suggests that Laura Bush says otherwise in Time magazine: > > [http://atrios.blogspot.com](http://atrios.blogspot.com) > > I wasn’t able to access the linked-to Time article, but if accurate, is she off message, or on hatchet job? Insufficiently coached. They’ve done a good job getting everyone else to remember to say that they admire Kerry’s service, but they forgot to pass the talking points to Laura. Or maybe she just got the Swiftboat Vets version of the memo by accident. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/980 "2004-08-29T16:16:29Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I will say this: I think the Swiftvets are sincere. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I don’t for a second believe that they are Republican shills. Sadly, that is probably true. All too horribly, horribly true. I have little doubt that you believe such things, overwhelming evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Extremists are fully capable of such glaring self-delusions while insisting that they’re just being honest. If you ever had any jot of credibility with clear-thinking people (which I can scarcely credit), now you’ve surely lost even that. **Sam** ,your posts here have all read just like these foul little turdettes by [Jerome Corsi’s](http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010) co-writer, John O’Neill: > [@](#): > > We don‘t attack Kerry for shooting the kid in the back… I’m saying that, with respect to his Silver Star, he exaggerated the circumstances, that no competent military person that I know would give someone a Silver Star for shooting a kid in the back, although I don‘t find anything wrong with that. **Sam** , your postings have always challenged my gag reflex, but in this thread you’ve broken the dam but good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=50)