# John Kerry and Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262 "2004-08-04T11:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/981 "2004-08-29T16:35:05Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > > [@Sam Stone](#): > > > > I will say this: I think the Swiftvets are sincere. > > Sadly, that is probably true. All too horribly, horribly true. > > I have little doubt that you believe such things, overwhelming evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Extremists are fully capable of such glaring self-delusions while insisting that they’re just being honest. If you ever had any jot of credibility with clear-thinking people (which I can scarcely credit), now you’ve surely lost even that. I know it is _declasse_(I don’t know how to get the accent on the final ‘e’) to say this but … Hitler was sincere. Stalin was sincere. Vlad the Impaler was sincere. Sincerity in spinning an evil bunch of lies doesn’t wash them clean. I suppose you might also say, “They meant well.” ‘Well’ for their purposes that is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/982 "2004-08-29T16:41:52Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** **Magiver** , don’t tell other posters in GD to “grow some testicles”. I think that falls under the bounds of “[discuss[ing] someone’s bowels or genitalia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4749265#post4749265)”, and is not exactly relevant here. I appreciate your efforts as Moderator since it’s generally a thankless job. However, what you are referring to is an expression. It refers to the aggressive nature of testosterone and does not directly relate to someone’s anatomy or lack there of. I don’t think you could read this any other way. It’s a another way saying “take it like a man, stand up for yourself”. It’s not literal. If we have to remove all expressions of the English language it’s a going to be a real can of worms (not to be confused with an actual can of worms). Please restate or clarify your objection and I’ll do my best to comply. It’s not my intention to directly insult someone as I believe it serves no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/983 "2004-08-29T16:52:37Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Insufficiently coached. They’ve done a good job getting everyone else to remember to say that they admire Kerry’s service, but they forgot to pass the talking points to Laura. > > Or maybe she just got the Swiftboat Vets version of the memo by accident. \*\* Or possibly Republicans don’t carry talking points around in their pocket like Mao’s little red book. Some people, Like Laura, Powell, Chaney, and Rice actually disagree with President Bush on one subject or another. I know it makes you nuts when this happens. It’s something I really like about the current administration. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/984 "2004-08-29T17:13:09Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > … **New Iskander** and anyone else who thinks that Kerry was a shameless glory whore: Do you think that he was anticipating his run 35ish years ago? Well, as far as master plans go, this one is a complete flop. Consider the record: [ul]1970 - Kerry enters into politics on anti-war platform and quickly damages himself by going overboard in his Congress testimony[/ul] [ul]1986 - Kerry opposes Reagan on Nicaragua and goes public with concocted Cambodia story[/ul] [ul]2004 - Kerry runs for President and overplays his Viet Nam record[/ul] Three things stand-out: deep personal involvement, penchant for melodrama, Viet Nam. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/985 "2004-08-29T17:49:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > \*\* Or possibly Republicans don’t carry talking points around in their pocket like Mao’s little red book. Some people, Like Laura, Powell, Chaney, and Rice actually disagree with President Bush on one subject or another. I know it makes you nuts when this happens. It’s something I really like about the current administration. \*\* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhuffhuffhuffAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/986 "2004-08-29T18:43:16Z")
**Magiver** : I know that **laigle** already chimed in, but I must take a moment and thank you for the outright belly laugh that you gave me. ::sniff:: It was a beautiful thing. **New Iskander** : I’m not sure I’m following you. Are you saying that Kerry **did** anticipate this run in '68? Or that he didn’t? And as to “deep personal involvement” v “penchant for melodrama” I think that your “pfm” just might be my “dpi”. And I don’t think that he’s overplayed his record at all. YM, ISO, VC. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/987 "2004-08-29T20:45:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > **Or possibly Republicans don’t carry talking points around in their pocket like Mao’s little red book. Some people, Like Laura, Powell, Chaney, and Rice actually disagree with President Bush on one subject or another. I know it makes you nuts when this happens.** I know it at least makes the news. And I rue the day that the Pubbies stop carrying round their talking points - it will severely deprive _The Daily Show_ of some of their best material (showing their video montages of the Pubbies repeating the same phrase in many differents speeches and TV appearances, all within 24 hours of each other - hilarious!). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/988 "2004-08-29T22:16:28Z")
“Shadowy groups” of “evildoers” Who “hate our freedoms” “Catastrophic success!” “America is safer”. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/989 "2004-08-29T22:53:08Z")
Damn, **luci** , you’ve almost got a halfway decent haiku there. Just needs a bit of polish: Shadowy groups seek Catastrophic success. Do Liberals aid them? They hate our freedom. Weapons of mass destruction Surely lurk, unfound. Is America Safer? The Patriot Act Guards our liberty As guards at Abu Ghraib guard the insurgent scum. Have WE become THEM? Ahem. Yeh, got a bit carried away there. At least it’s not limericks. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/990 "2004-08-29T23:48:49Z")
George made us a horrible mess In Iraq, cuz his lies did impress. When they all came undone The truth he yet shunned Calling loss, catastrophic success. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/991 "2004-08-30T00:29:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Or possibly Republicans don’t carry talking points around in their pocket like Mao’s little red book. You better tell John Moody, then, since [he sure was handing them out every day over at Fox News.](http://www.wonkette.com/archives/fox-news-memos-the-whole-batch-017613.php) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/992 "2004-08-30T01:14:41Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > You better tell John Moody, then, since [he sure was handing them out every day over at Fox News.](http://www.wonkette.com/archives/fox-news-memos-the-whole-batch-017613.php) Condescension aside I don’t get your opinion or why you cited [Wonkett.com](http://Wonkett.com). Did the definition of talking points change? John Moody is with FOX. Talking-points originate from within a party and are distributed within the party. They serve multiply purposes but mainly are designed to maintain a party line and also to distribute the results of focus groups. Which was the point of my opinion. You have a lot of differing opinions with the upper ranks of the Republican Party. Talking points don’t exactly work if people are allowed to voice their opinions. There are many techniques to “spread the word” but Terry McAuliffe brought the “talking points” concept to a higher level. I would expect him to be acknowledged for this in Poli-Sci books after he retires. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/993 "2004-08-30T01:30:40Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > **Magiver** : I know that **laigle** already chimed in, but I must take a moment and thank you for the outright belly laugh that you gave me. > > ::sniff:: It was a beautiful thing. > > **New Iskander** : I’m not sure I’m following you. Are you saying that Kerry **did** anticipate this run in '68? Or that he didn’t? > > And as to “deep personal involvement” v “penchant for melodrama” I think that your “pfm” just might be my “dpi”. And I don’t think that he’s overplayed his record at all. YM, ISO, VC. Yes, I can always tell words of wisdumb are about to follow when a response starts with a high level of indignation followed by a tangent to what I’ve said. In this case, you’ve left out the tangent. As for Kerry, I don’t know of any vet, (that’s ANY vet) that talks about Vietnam to the extent Kerry does. It’s mentioned in every speech I’ve heard him make during the election. And this truism is just making the rank-and-file nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/994 "2004-08-30T01:50:54Z")
[quote] **Magvier** : Originally Posted by **MEBuckner** : Moderator’s Note: > [@](#): > > Magiver, don’t tell other posters in GD to “grow some testicles”. I think that falls under the bounds of “discuss[ing] someone’s bowels or genitalia”, and is not exactly relevant here. > [@](#): > > **Magiver** :…What you are referring to is an expression. It refers to the aggressive nature of testosterone and does not directly relate to someone’s anatomy or lack there of. I don’t think you could read this any other way. It’s a another way saying “take it like a man, stand up for yourself”. Your original statement directed to me was this: > [@](#): > > **Magiver** : No offense Zoe but grow some testicles. If you’re a retired English teacher you shouldn’t need the glowing good graces of someone who is of a “youthful nature” in his writing style. Elucidator is creative with language but so is Snoop Doggy Dog. Enjoy his antics for what they are and treat it as the entertainment he intends it to be. So what you were really saying was for me to _take it like a man_ and stand up for myself? That doesn’t make very much sense when substituted in the context of what you said. Further, your comment was sexist. Surely you don’t think that the ability to stand up for oneself comes from testosterone! So what you probably meant was “take it like an adult.” Which leads me to remind you that your comments to me were based on your own misunderstanding of what I was saying. (That has been explained previously.) I was not being critical of **elucidator’s** writing style as you mistakenly thought that I was. May I suggest that you not overly concern yourself with what I should and shouldn’t “need” from other dopers. You are not in a position to know. I wish you well and I hope that we can continue to be civil to each other in our discussions here. ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/995 "2004-08-30T02:28:55Z")
If it helps (of course it makes no difference at all), I have changed my mind on who will win the forthcoming election. I apologise profusely on the remarks I have made concerning said Kerry. Politicians lie - they have to in this age of universal democracy. Damn Bush to hell I say! Rotten evil liar he his. At least Kerry saw a bit of action, whilst pampered brat of Bush junior has seen none at all! Sod him, and all his kind, especially when they keep saying that filthy-rubbish phrase ‘weapons of mass destruction’. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/996 "2004-08-30T03:04:51Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] > [@](#): > > **Magvier** : > > Originally Posted by **MEBuckner** : > > Moderator’s Note: > > Your original statement directed to me was this: > > So what you were really saying was for me to _take it like a man_ and stand up for myself? That doesn’t make very much sense when substituted in the context of what you said. Further, your comment was sexist. Surely you don’t think that the ability to stand up for oneself comes from testosterone! So what you probably meant was “take it like an adult.” > > \*\*Yes, that’s what I meant and it “should” make literary sense. If it doesn’t then I’ve failed. Tough to argue with an English Teacher. Can’t seem to please myself with my writing style so I know how it must read to you. > > No it doesn’t mean take it like an adult or I would have said “grow up” (which would be an intended insult). If it’s sexist to you then I don’t know what to say. Men/testicles/testosterone are all aggressive images.\*\* > > Which leads me to remind you that your comments to me were based on your own misunderstanding of what I was saying. (That has been explained previously.) I was not being critical of **elucidator’s** writing style as you mistakenly thought that I was. > > \*\*Yes, you did explain it, and you are correct. I failed your occupation’s goal of literacy. However, it wasn’t germane to my reply (and question) to the moderator \*\* > > May I suggest that you not overly concern yourself with what I should and shouldn’t “need” from other dopers. You are not in a position to know. > > **You may. I will. And I extend the invitation to you regarding my conversations to the moderator.** > > I wish you well and I hope that we can continue to be civil to each other in our discussions here. \*\* I wish you well and apologize if I’ve offended you. Teachers rank high on my list of occupations, even if I disagree with their opinion or misconstrue what they say. With that, I’ll leave you to your thoughts. I’m goin fishin (actually going to listen to some blues musicians)\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/997 "2004-08-30T03:05:42Z")
> [@WoodCM](#): > > especially when they keep saying that filthy-rubbish phrase ‘weapons of mass destruction’. It’s too bad about that phrase. ‘Weapons of mass destruction’ actually used to have some technical meaning, [as described in this old thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70902). [Two short years](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=195242) of abuse reduced its meaning to _this_: > [@Reeder](#): > > **Google…weapons of mass destruction** > > Go to [Google.com](http://Google.com) > > Type in…weapons of mass destruction…no quotation marks… > > click…I’m feeling lucky… > > enjoy… 🙂 ••• ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/998 "2004-08-30T03:33:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It’s too bad about that phrase. ‘Weapons of mass destruction’ actually used to have some technical meaning, [as described in this old thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70902). > [Two short years](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=195242) of abuse reduced its meaning to _this_: > > ••• And it seems to be nothingness, except for one(or maybe more, I can’t remember) contributer who said a pithy thing about it. ‘Technical meaning’. I think not. Perhaps you are being sarcastic, in which I understand. When Colin Powell waived around his little vial of pretend-anthrax in that assembly, I presume were disgusted? I hope you are doing your bit to destroy the evil phrase. Go forth, and do your duty! ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/999 "2004-08-30T05:14:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Please restate or clarify your objection and I’ll do my best to comply. It’s not my intention to directly insult someone as I believe it serves no purpose. **Mag** , I sincerely recommend that you do not ‘fuck with the Buck.’ Or any moderATOR, fwiw, but… ah well, find out the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262/1000 "2004-08-30T05:22:39Z")
> [@](#): > > April 23, 1971: > Kerry helps to organize a huge anti-war protest outside Congress, earning a place on president Richard Nixon’s “enemies’ list.” He joins a group of Vietnam veterans who throw medals and campaign ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol. So, he ‘discards’ his awards when it is convenient for him, and now he ‘retrieves’ them when it’s convenient? I’m anti-Bush, but the posts in this thread are awakening me to a side of Kerry that I do not like. I’m starting to get wary of my vote for Kerry! I’ve heard a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush… I’m starting to get very nervous here… 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-and-vietnam/258262.md?page=51)